Author Topic: 7mm08?????? (Read 2258 times)

John · « **on:** August 14, 2003, 03:25:17 PM »

What's the deal, isn't it just about the same round as the old Winchester 284? That round never was very popular, why should the 7mm08 ever catch on?

jhm · « **Reply #1 on:** August 14, 2003, 04:44:58 PM »

John : Yes they are close but I believe the biggest draw besides accuracy is the 7mm08 can be had in a shorter action than the 284,

JIM

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** August 14, 2003, 05:50:15 PM »

Don't look now but it already HAS caught on. All the ammo companies are loading for it now. For years only Remington did. Now everyone does and everyone has multiple loads for it. EVEN WINCHESTER! That's when ya know ya got a winner. When an opposing name like Remington vs. Winchester or S&W vs. Ruger or Colt adopts it you know it has come of age.

The .284 Win. was never offered in many rifles and was just ahead of it's time with the short fat concept. I consider the 7-08 the perfect deer round.

GB

Mr Bill · « **Reply #3 on:** August 14, 2003, 07:58:50 PM »

I have rifles chambered for both. I purchased my 7-08 Micro Medallion before I even new about the .284 Win. I think marketing had a lot to do with the one succeeding and the other not.
With short magazines, i.e., Browning A-Bolts, Win 88's and 100's, I haven't found much difference between the two except the .284 seems to handle slightly heavier bullets a little better.
I feel the .284 has the potential to out perform the 7-08 if it is chambered in a bolt action with a medium length action and a longer throat to allow the bullet to be seated farther out and thereby allowing for more useable case capacity. Other than that scenario I guess the 7-08 is a more efficient round.
I have a fairly extensive collection of factory chambered rifles in .284 Win., most unfired and in new in box (nib) condition. Someday when I have significantly more disposable money I plan to buy a lightweight or sporter weight rifle chambered in 7-08 to rechamber to .284 Win. I've seen a Browning Stainless Stalker A-Bolt and a Weatherby MK-V Ultralight sold on the internet auctions. The Ruger 77R would be a good candidate if I could locate one that had already been used. Mine has only been factory fired. I think my rarest is a Winchester Model 70 with detachable box magazine that was only offered in '94. It's estimated only 200 were produced, it was also the last factory offering of the .284. Mine is nib.
Again, I think it was only due to marketing.
Bill

John · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2003, 03:36:20 AM »

I owned a model 100 for around 20 years, and thought it was great. I never understood why the 284 wasn't more popular.

I read somewhere that it was popular with some of the silhouette shooters when chambered in a bolt gun.

John Traveler · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2003, 04:18:37 AM »

The 6.5-284 wildcat is favored for long range target shooting and by the metallic silouhette shooters.

Has everyone forgotten the old classic 7x57 Mauser? That is almost a ballistic twin to the .284 Winchester and the 7mm-308.

No doubt the 7mm-08 became so popular so fast because it was chambered in compact and fast-handling short-action rifles.

I've a that the .284 Winchester fizzled because it used a unique case, not the standard .473" diameter 8x57, .30-06 size. As such, it could not be made from cheap and available military brass.

Historically, when a major manucaturer comes out with a uniquely dimensioned cartridge case, it has to struggle to become established.

Zachary · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2003, 04:44:07 AM »

Quote from: John

What's the deal, isn't it just about the same round as the old Winchester 284? That round never was very popular, why should the 7mm08 ever catch on?

Well, you just struck a cord with me 'cause the 7-08 is my
favorite deer round. In fact, I don't one just one, but TWO rifles in the 7mm-08. One rifle is a Remington BDL SS DM and it has a Leupold Vari-X III 4.5x-14x-50mm Illuminated Reticle on top of it. The other rifle, which I just ordered, it a Sako 75 Stainless Synthetic and I just ordered the new Leupold Vari-X III 3.5x-10x-50mm Illuminated with the new 30mm tube (I got free 30mm Sako Opti-lock rings - hence I need a 30mm tubed scope.)

I mention the above for two reasons. First, MANY rifle manufacturers are chambering their rifles in the 7mm-08. In fact, not only US manufacuturers, but ALSO EUROPEAN TOO. In addition, it's not just rifle makers either - many companies offer the 7-08 in handguns too.

The second reason I mention my rifles and scopes is that, if you notice, I mount fairly expensive scopes on my 7-08s. Although I am not the biggest Leupold Fan out there (I tend to like the Elite 4200s more) there is little doubt that Leupold makes excellent illuminated reticles - and that's a feature that I really like to play with.

As GB mentioned, many ammo makers sell 7-08 ammo. My personal favorite is the Hornady 139 grain SP Light Magnum. It shoots about 1/2" groups out of my Remington 700. I can't wait to see how it shoots in the Sako.

Accurate, low recoil, short action, great caliber, good sectional density...need I say more? THE 7-08 IS IT!

Zachary

Dave in WV · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2003, 05:07:29 AM »

Zachary, now all you have to do to get me in the dog house is convince Ruger to make the 77 MKII in 7-08. :eek: I have a .243 and a 30-06 so the .308 doesn't do anything for me. Besides, the 7-08 duplicates a great classic cartridge, the 7mm Mauser.

Zachary · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2003, 07:54:02 AM »

Although I'm not a fan of Ruger rifles, I'm surprised that Ruger doesn't chamber any of their rifles in 7mm-08. Are you sure? I think that I saw a Ruger advertisement in Hunting Magazine where they showed their small light rifle (I forgot the model name or number) in .243, 2.60, 7mm-08, and .308.

Zachary

dbuck · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2003, 09:01:42 AM »

I have a 7mm-08 Remington 700SS that I wouldn't give up for anything. Alot of people over the years have talk about the 7X57 Mauser and it has taken every game from here to their and what ever the 7X57 can do the 7mm-8 can do it without breathing hard.

Its a great deer rifle out to 400 + yards. I reload mine with a Nosler 140 gr. BT and Varget power with 3000 ft. per second she can really reach out their and touch someone.

dbuck

longwinters · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2003, 10:16:56 AM »

Seeing a 7M-08 is just like when I saw my wife for the 1st time. All I could think of is "I DO" i DO" I DO"!!!! :grin:

LONG

Dave in WV · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2003, 01:11:57 PM »

Zachary, my bad. :oops: I meant to say the International model M77. That is the only type walnut stock I want. I'm not a Remington M700/M7 fan myself so I guess we won't compete for the same guns.

Dave

Mr Bill · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2003, 02:45:19 PM »

Quote from: John

I owned a model 100 for around 20 years, and thought it was great.

John,
I'm curious why you wrote this in past tense. Why did you part with it?
Bill

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2003, 05:19:35 PM »

dbuck, 3000 fps from a 140 grain bullet and a 22" barrel? That is one seriously hot load. That's only about 200 fps behind the 7mm Rem. Mag I believe. Remington factory 140s churn up about 2800 fps if I recall correctly and are hotter than most. Only the Hornady light mags will out do them and not by all that much really.

GB

John · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2003, 04:58:06 AM »

Mr. Bill, a good friend of mine down in Texas was interested in the model 100, and offered to trade a nice 06 for it.

I now own an 06.

dbuck · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2003, 08:05:16 AM »

Greybeard, I have a 24" barrel on my Remington with a target crown. My Chrony showed that six straight times. I'm using 44.5 grs. of Varget. My Nosler reloading guide states 2849fps using 42.0 max, but I show no pressure signs what so ever and its a very accurate load as I've stated before, shooting two huge whitetail in Wyoming at 413 and 417 yards. The first one ran about 60 yards and drop where I hit him in the left shoulder and it came out the right shoulder. The second one drop where he stood breaking his spine, my nephew killed that one.

dbuck

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2003, 12:07:19 PM »

Dbuck, everyone has to make their own decisions regarding the safety of their loads.

I like what JD Jones of SSK says regarding someone who is "seeing no pressure signs". He asks only if the bullet came out the end of the barrel. If so that's a pretty good sign you have pressure.

Truth is there are NO reliable methods of knowing the pressure in your loads. The old ones from reloading manuals of old DO NOT work. Put to the test with modern measuring equipment none of them can tell you the dfference between a blue pill proof load and a low pressure load.

Your loads are way over safe pressures. Being 2.5 grains over the book max I'd hazard a guess that you are likely generating pressures in the 75,000+ range. If so, used long enough the gun will come apart on you. I just hope you aren't the kind to suit the manufacturer for your injuries when it does.

GB

dbuck · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2003, 12:35:05 PM »

Greybeard, I don't suit anyone, I hold myself responsible for my own actions unlike some Americans who want to blame someone else for their own actions, but getting back to the load, you are right, I need to back off on this load for safety sake. Good advise.

dbuck

John · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2003, 02:42:19 PM »

You are a smart man to heed the advice. Some fellas would just be macho till something broke.

dbuck · « **Reply #19 on:** August 16, 2003, 05:37:16 PM »

I found this on the internet concerning the 7mm-08:

Answer the Gun Writers

Below are statements made by famous gun writers in the magazines.

The flat shooting 25-06 is the best for antelope hunting in opening country.
Answer: The 7mm-08 120 GR handloads shoot flatter than 120 GR 25-06 factory loads! With 120 GR 25-06 handloads, the 25-06 and 7mm-08 are ballistic twins!

The 30-06 will handle all North American big game except for the large bears.
Answer: The 7mm-08 is flatter shooting with equal energy and 40% less recoil than the 30-06!

The 270 Winchester is the best all-around rifle. For varmits, up to the largest deer species, the 270 can't be beat!
Answer: The 7mm-08 is the ballistic twin of the 270. The 7mm-08 has less recoil for varmit shooting, and will handle bigger bullets for the largest game. The 7mm-08 uses less powder and inherits the tack driving accuracy of the 308 Winchester.

The 280 Remington might unseat the 270 Winchester as the best all-around hunting cartridge.
Answer: The 280 factory loads are made for older pump action and auto-loading rifles and fall far below the performance levels of the 7mm-08 handloads.

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2003, 05:49:43 PM »

And your point is?

Looks to me like just more of what I've been saying about magzine writers now for several years on the internet. Don't believe them. Not one single "truth" listed there about the 7-08 is truthly truth that can be backed up with hard data I don't think. Hey I love the 7-08. But magic it ain't.

GB

dbuck · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2003, 04:33:06 AM »

My point being that it is a great cartridge, yes I'm with you when it comes to gun writers, they have to talk about something, but the point is that the 7mm-08 is a great round, not the catch all for everything, no cartridge is, but I think we got off the original post in that "would the 7mm-08 ever catch on over the 284". So the answer IMHO is the 7mm-8 is popular and a great deer cartridge.

dbuck

Dave in WV · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2003, 05:12:15 AM »

To answer John's original post, the 7-08 has already caught on and is here to stay for a while. You can get foreign rifles chambered for it and one or two seem to have dropped the 7mm Mauser for the 7-08. It mirrors the 7mm Mauser as it comes factory loaded and isn't far behind it when the Mauser cartridge is loaded to it's potential. The 284 was ahead of it's time and IMHO would be a hot seller now. Say what you want, most people really don't like magnum rounds when they are behind the butt. The 284 has gone on to father a few great wildcat chamberings such as the 25-284, 6.5-284 and the 30-284. The 7mm Mauser has not had the following in this country it deservered because of two world wars. The 7-08 got in the door by following the 7 Rem mag's popularity and giving us a great cartridge that kills only at one end. Dave

John · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2003, 06:21:05 AM »

It just didn't make any sense to me why the 7/08 would be popular when the 284 didn't make it. I never thought about all the 308 brass available, and then when you fellas mentioned all the choices of rifles to pick from that are chambered in the 7/08, I began to understand.

It's only speculation, but I think the 284 would have made it if offered in a wide selection of good bolt rifles back in its day.

Thanks for all the comments.

Big Hext Finnigan · « **Reply #24 on:** August 17, 2003, 08:02:06 AM »

Howdy,

How a gun or cartridge performs is important to it's eventual success. In this day and age, the marketing and the market have much more to do with a new model of gun or cartridge successfully remaining in the gunshops.

The 7-08 is an excellent cartridge and one I have owned, shot and used in hunting. It is not particularly unique. There are many cartridges that are similar, the 270, 280, 7x57, 7 Mag, 25-06 and more.

Why did it stick? In my opinion, the 7 Mag paved the way for acceptance of the 7mm bullet and created a buxxword niche. Then, it was chambered in guns that had some interest as well, the Model 7 and the Boss-equipped Wins and Brownings. It also hit the leading edge of the short and fat cartridge movement. And it plain works.

Adios,

Zachary · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2003, 09:22:41 AM »

Quote from: dbuck

I found this on the internet concerning the 7mm-08:

Answer the Gun Writers

Below are statements made by famous gun writers in the magazines.

The flat shooting 25-06 is the best for antelope hunting in opening country.
Answer: The 7mm-08 120 GR handloads shoot flatter than 120 GR 25-06 factory loads! With 120 GR 25-06 handloads, the 25-06 and 7mm-08 are ballistic twins!

The 30-06 will handle all North American big game except for the large bears.
Answer: The 7mm-08 is flatter shooting with equal energy and 40% less recoil than the 30-06!

The 270 Winchester is the best all-around rifle. For varmits, up to the largest deer species, the 270 can't be beat!
Answer: The 7mm-08 is the ballistic twin of the 270. The 7mm-08 has less recoil for varmit shooting, and will handle bigger bullets for the largest game. The 7mm-08 uses less powder and inherits the tack driving accuracy of the 308 Winchester.

The 280 Remington might unseat the 270 Winchester as the best all-around hunting cartridge.
Answer: The 280 factory loads are made for older pump action and auto-loading rifles and fall far below the performance levels of the 7mm-08 handloads.

dbuck,

I saw this on the net recently too. It's not a gun writer, per se, but rather your "average Joe" who is just very happy with his 7-08. In writing his findings on the net, I too understood your point simply to be that the 7-08 is a great cartridge. If memory serves me correct, there was a section on his site that said that had comparisons of the "handloaded" 7-08 loads vs. "factory" 7mag loads, 270 loads, and other loads. However, it was interesting that most of the 7-08 loads had boat-tail bullets while the factory loads did not. As such, the gentlemen's enthusiasm for 7mm-08 caused for the results to be somewhat skewed. That notwithstanding, the 7-08 really is an awesome cartridge. Like I said, it's my personal favorite for deer.

As for the hot loads, GB is correct - 140 grains at 3000 fps is very close to what the Hornady light magnums do. Actually, I have a box of 7-08 Hornady ammo right here in front of me and it says that the 139 grain SP (which is the Hornady Interlock Spire Point - flat base) has a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps.

I'm not exactly sure about what the true difference is between Light Magnums and High Energy loads, and simply putting more powder in the brass. I understand that these LM loads are what they call "cooler." :? Not exactly sure what that means, but apparently they are very safe. I know that GB uses these exact LM loads in his 7-08 - not because he necessarily want the extra speed, but because they are extremely accurate in his M700 rifle. I think I kinda agree with GB on the safety point - which you also seem to agree as well. I'm no expert on the issue of "signs of pressure" etc, because I just use factory ammo, but I'm sure that using a bit less powder won't make much of a difference to Mr. Whitetail - even at 400 yards.

Zachary

Dave in WV · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2003, 10:23:17 AM »

Rick Jamison did an article in Shooting Times last year I believe on the " signs of pressure" we tend to use. To keep this short, he was up to around proof loads when he reliably got the flatened primers, expansion at the cartridge base, and the other "signs of over pressure". The best thing to do is use tested data and don't go over it. Dave