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Offline DoubleGobble00

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444 or 45/70 Handi????
« on: October 12, 2008, 04:46:44 AM »
I am pretty new to the forum and I am looking to buy a 444 or a 45/70 handi rifle. I am just not sure which rifle I should buy? The 45/70 seems to be more common and easier to find ammo but the 444 should be a little flatter shooting. What do yal think? Which is the better or more accurate load? Thanks,

DoubleG
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Offline Troyboy

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 04:51:21 AM »
This ? has been asked a lot. Check some previous posts. You will find what you are asking about. Welcome


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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 06:45:47 AM »
I will give you the reults of all the other similar questions...45-70....<><....:)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 07:10:01 AM »
BOTH!!! But get the 45-70 first! ;) I have a .444 and four 45-70s, all H&Rs, they all shoot good, you won't go wrong with either choice, but the 45-70 is a must-have H&R chambering, lots of fun to shoot and can be loaded with mild trapdoor loads, to well into the Ruger level loads. ;) If you only shoot factory ammo, the Hornady Leverevolution ammo shoots very well in either chambering. Ballistically there's not enough difference in them to be concerned about when the 45-70 is loaded to levergun pressure levels, check the exterior ballistic charts on Buffalo Bore's ammo.

Tim

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#444

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570
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Offline petemi

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 07:19:41 AM »
Welcome, and I'll also vote for the .45-70....much more versatile and a wide selection of ammo available.
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The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 07:58:34 AM »
Just cause I gotta be difficult, I vote for the 444.  I got both and like both but just do what Tim said (only backwards ;D)  DP
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RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 12:30:30 PM »
I would say get the 45-70 because you may have a hard time getting a 444. Sport South who supplies many gun dealerships are completely out of 444's; there are 45-70's available. I am not sure if the 444 is that much more popular (other than with the guys here) or they under estimated the 444 market. As far as performance, there really is not too much difference, especially if you do not reload. If you buy the specialty rounds, some of them get real expensive $100+ for the 45-70 and just under $100 for the 444. Both can be had in their normal form of around $30/box
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 01:02:06 PM »
My Vote is for the 45-70.
1) easier to find ammo
2)More loading data and options for the 45-70
3)you can use rifle bullets and poinred ones too to get a better BC and better long range effects
you can go from a hot 45 LC in power to the bottom of 458 win mag
The 444 uses pistol bullets and I'm not so sure they can take the impact at higher velocities than what the 44 mag was designed to preform.  I think speeding a 180 grain JSP or JHP past 2000 fps may not preform well with the bullet comming apart rather than penitrating.
I'm sure a lot of people will agrue with me about this but it's my opinion, but I have some data on driving 44 bullets out of my  44 mag  carbine fast anfd finding the jackets about 50 feet down range on 240 grain JHPs.  The bullets were pulled hydroshocks and driven to 1500 FPS out of the 20" carbine.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 01:11:05 PM »
I reiterate, 45-70 first!! ;D

Tim



Trajectory for Custom .458" Barnes TSX-FB at 2320 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.23   0.23   0.23   0.23   0.23
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2320   2320   2320   2320
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2320.0   3584.8   3.09   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2230.4   3313.4   2.97   -0.21   0.51   0.0   0.032970414
50   2142.8   3058.1   2.85   -0.85   2.08   0.0   0.067277169
75   2057.1   2818.4   2.74   -1.97   3.18   0.0   0.103000162
100   1973.5   2593.9   2.63   -3.6   3.76   0.0   0.140224050
125   1892.0   2384.1   2.52   -5.79   3.79   0.0   0.179038699
150   1812.7   2188.4   2.41   -8.58   3.21   0.0   0.219539103
175   1735.7   2006.5   2.31   -12.04   1.96   0.0   0.261823952
200   1661.3   1838.2   2.21   -16.22   0.0   0.0   0.305993865
225   1589.6   1682.9   2.12   -21.19   -2.75   0.0   0.352149875
250   1520.8   1540.4   2.03   -27.01   -6.36   0.0   0.400392165
275   1455.1   1410.2   1.94   -33.78   -10.91   0.0   0.450815554
300   1392.9   1292.1   1.86   -41.57   -16.49   0.0   0.503505340
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 05:26:43 PM »
Oh, alright Tim.  Gotta admit, that is a sexy looking round for sure.  Jeeze, always the last word. ;D ;D ;D  DP
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RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline Mean17

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 05:34:59 PM »
That round looks killer tim.  Any hand load info? Powder type/how much/seating depth, you know the drill ;D
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 06:51:00 PM »
DP, I have allegiance to the 45-70 even tho I really like the .444 too, mine shoots lights out accurate with every load I've shot in it, it's just really too bad no one makes pointy bullets for it. :-\

17, I used Barnes data for H4198, but a slightly shorter COL cuz I was into the lands at 2.770".

Tim

http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/45-70RugerNo1Web.pdf

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Offline Mean17

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 07:59:08 PM »
Hey tim what yardage was that group at if you dont mind me asking?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 08:04:18 PM »
100yds
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2008, 08:14:15 AM »
It's ok Tim.  The 45-70 really is laying them in there tight.  Can't argue with performance like that.  'Sides, like I said, I have to be different. ;D  DP
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RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline tykempster

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2008, 01:51:45 PM »
Very impressive with the 45-70.  How much bullet is in the case?  In other words with a lengthened throat how much could you bring it out and increase velocity?  ;D

I've gone up to 60 grains H4198 with a 300 grain in my Marlins so that should be safe with the bullet way out there in an H&R...2500 fps?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2008, 01:58:28 PM »
About .440", but at $1 each, they aren't fun to shoot!! :'(

Tim
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Offline tykempster

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2008, 04:51:36 PM »
Ah, so not much room to seat them out.  :(
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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2008, 04:34:16 AM »
The 444 hasn't been loaded with pistol bullets for quite a looooong time.  The 265 Hornady was designed for the 444, as is the LE ammo made by Hornady.  If you handload for it, just make sure you use the right bullet, same as handloading any cartridge.  Have also heard good reports on the 270g Gold Dots for the 444.  And most of the cast GC bullets would work well for what you need to do with the 444.  DP
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RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2008, 02:12:05 PM »
The 355gr Beartooth shoots real good in my .444, but so does the 240gr XTP and 265gr Hornady. ;)

Tim
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Offline petemi

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2008, 02:35:34 PM »
Quote from: dpe.ahoy on October 12, 2008, 05:26:43 PM
Oh, alright Tim.  Gotta admit, that is a sexy looking round for sure.  Jeeze, always the last word. ;D ;D ;D  DP

I don't know what to do with him....He's too old to hang out to dry, he'd just shrivel up and blow away.  I guess we're just stuck with him..........and thank God we are!!! :D :D
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Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

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Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2008, 02:58:22 PM »
I agree! ( On both statements ;D)  DP
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RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2008, 03:04:37 PM »
Thanks guys!! ;)

Tim
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Offline tykempster

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 04:07:51 PM »
That last 444 group is impressive.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 04:18:18 PM »
Thanks, the 45-70 can do it too. ;)

Tim

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Offline tykempster

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2008, 04:26:05 PM »
Mine isn't as good, I'll better it soon, the 45-120 has had my attention lately.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 444 or 45/70 Handi????
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2008, 04:27:48 PM »
100yds?

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