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Offline lawson

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416 rigby
« on: October 06, 2008, 11:59:30 AM »
I had a guy today tell me he is going to put a 416 rigby barrel on a handirifle frame.  This can not be safe can it?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 12:13:34 PM »
The 416 Rigby is only rated at 42kcup, but the casehead is huge at .589", it may work fine on a modern SB2 frame. I'd need the inside casehead diameter to calculate breech thrust which would be the determining factor.

Tim
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Offline petemi

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 01:21:29 PM »
Tim, that's good to know!  If you ever get rich enough to take us both to Africa, I may want to convert my 7mm-08 to .416 ;D :D ??? ::) :-\
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 01:25:49 PM »
I didn't say it would work, it MAY work. ;) If I go, I'll be sure ta let ya know!!! ;D

Tim
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Offline petemi

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 01:28:40 PM »
The 416 Rigby is only rated at 42kcup, but the casehead is huge at .589", it may work fine on a modern SB2 frame. I'd need the inside casehead diameter to calculate breech thrust which would be the determining factor. Tim

Seriously, Tim how do you do that?  Case head diameter/breech thrust??  I'm learning and appreciate the information.  Thanks, Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline petemi

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 02:07:15 PM »
Dale, Willing to ask and learn isn't stupid, it is intelligent, and I don't think you're lacking there! ;)

I have this problem.  I keep thinking about stopping a charging woodchuck at 20 yards with the .416.  Makes me nervous to think about it :-[
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 02:16:30 PM »
Thanks. I knew a lot less about rifles then. Dale
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 02:41:15 PM »
Dan Lilja explains bolt thrust in his FAQs this article.  ;)

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm
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Offline choctaw

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 02:42:52 PM »
Quote
I keep thinking about stopping a charging woodchuck at 20 yards with the .416.

Everyone knows a 375 H&H Magnum is enough gun for charging woodchucks.  But when I'm trailing wounded Texas jackrabbits into the bush, I always reach for my .416 double.  ;D

Shooting a .416 on a Handi frame is one heck of an interesting notion.  Hmmmmm...
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Offline petemi

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2008, 03:09:57 PM »
Quote
I keep thinking about stopping a charging woodchuck at 20 yards with the .416.

Everyone knows a 375 H&H Magnum is enough gun for charging woodchucks.  But when I'm trailing wounded Texas jackrabbits into the bush, I always reach for my .416 double.  ;D

Shooting a .416 on a Handi frame is one heck of an interesting notion.  Hmmmmm...
 

I can't wait to use it just after my right shoulder gets used to .45-70 Buffalo Bores.  Very seriously though, I'd love to try it.  I could probably afford to shoot maybe two rounds a week :D ;D ;D
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

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Offline OR-E-Gun Bill

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2008, 03:26:12 PM »
OUCH! At $210+ per box of 20 for these bad boys, I would sure hope it didn't take a lot of range time to break her in...


Bill

Offline plumberroy

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2008, 04:43:47 PM »
Quote
I keep thinking about stopping a charging woodchuck at 20 yards with the .416.

Everyone knows a 375 H&H Magnum is enough gun for charging woodchucks.  But when I'm trailing wounded Texas jackrabbits into the bush, I always reach for my .416 double.  ;D

Shooting a .416 on a Handi frame is one heck of an interesting notion.  Hmmmmm...
I don't know about a 375 on a charging whistle pig , but I do know for a fact that 2 1/4 oz 10 gauge turkey load does a fine job at stopping a  charging groundhog at 10 foot. It is just a bit messy though ;D
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2008, 05:42:50 PM »
I didn't find any specs on the internal casehead diameter of the 416 Rigby, but I did find the reference below that states a bolt thrust of 9228psi which is less than the 9800psi of the 500S&W with a 50kpsi load, but the 500S&W is a straight walled case and the Rigby is a bottlenecked case which likely has bearing on it's use in the SB2. So based on that bolt thrust alone, the Handi would handle it, but just as the case is with the 500S&W, for how long is another question.

Tim

http://www.realguns.com/archives/157.htm

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=151
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Offline petemi

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 12:08:55 AM »
At $210 per box, I just revised my shooting schedule to one shot per month and two for Christmas.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 06:49:19 AM »
OK, Guys, I sacrificed one of my Norma 416 Rigby cases. They mike .495 just north of the case web.

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2008, 08:58:02 AM »
Thanks for taking one for the team Joe, that brass is about $2.75-$3 each!! :o That's much smaller than I figured it would be, just about the same as the 500S&W, way thicker brass tho. I did a little more searching for the operating pressure of the Rigby, Wiki lists it at 47,137psi, so that would make 9077psi, more in line with the Realguns figure.

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.416_Rigby

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Offline tykempster

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2008, 04:57:46 PM »
What about a 404 Jeffrey or 416 Rem. Mag?

Offline Fred M

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 05:42:07 PM »
If you toke a bull barrel and re-chambered it with a .589 chamber you would only have a .260" chamber wall. Mighty thin? A stubbing job would even be less. Not kosher in my opinion? You would have to start
out with a lot bigger barrel end to keep the chamber from splitting by milling out the insides of the action and welding plates to the outside.

The Handi was never mend to be a 416 Rigby. ??? The Rigby is build on a big Brevex Magnum action or a big double barrel of some substantial weight notwithstanding minimal bolt thrust.
Fred M.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2008, 04:11:43 AM »
Wall strength of 4140 is outa my realm, but that should give em something to think about, eh Fred!! ;D

Tim
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 04:43:24 AM »
At $200+ a box are the cases titanium??? Kurt
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Offline GrampaMike

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 05:24:12 AM »
If you got to have something near a .416, how about a 414 Supermag or a 405 Winchester.  No where near the expense of the 416 Rigby.  Both would be much more fun to shoot.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 06:02:01 AM »
My neighbor Mike ordered a .416 Rigby barrel for his Encore.  He was planning a trip down to the coast for Brown Bear.  I mentioned that the .416 would be a handful in an Encore.  Mike is a big boy, 6'5" about 250 lbs of solid muscle.  The broadest shoulders I ever saw on a man.     When it came in he mounted a scope with lots of eye relief.  Went to the store and bought a box of shells and went to the range without telling anyone.  Just happened I was there when he arrived.  I went over and we talked a bit, offered the use of my lead sled so he could get sighted in.  Mike said "Na, it won't be that bad".  So I went back to what I was doing.  Heard Mike fire his first round, then a load experlative.  I looked over at Mike, blood was flowing freely from his head.  I went over and Mike had a gash above his eye.  I don't mean a usual scope bite, I mean a big cut about three inches wide, with the skin peeled up about an inch.  My concern was about his eye.  Mike said his eye was OK it was just skin torn.  I loaded our guns into his truck and headed to the Hospital.  The emergency room folks laughed and really ribbed Mike about his big OHWEE.  Mike said afterwards the seven stitches weren't bad, it was the cleaning of the area before they could pull the skin back down and stitch it in place that was the bad part.  Mikes face swelled up to the point he could not drive of do much of anything.  Swelling went from his nose to his ear, and from his cheek to the top of his forehead.  That area also turned almost black, and stayed bruised for two weeks.  Mike now looks really rugged, like a real Alaskan.  The first thing people notice is his crooked eyebrow, with two bald spots.  Then you see the scare.  Mike calls it "The badge of a shooter".  Don't know what he did with that barrel, he has not brought it to the range since that day.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2008, 06:20:36 AM »
If you got to have something near a .416, how about a 414 Supermag or a 405 Winchester.  No where near the expense of the 416 Rigby.  Both would be much more fun to shoot.

The 405 Win works well with a 28" Target barrel, I get well over 2400fps with the 300gr Hornady SP, the biggest problem is bullet availability, pretty scarce in .411", I've thought about sizing some .416" jacketed bullets down, have read of others doing the same, but haven't tried it yet. In the mean time, the 300gr Barnes X is my next load, I've had them loaded up for quite a while, just have had other rifles I wanted to shoot instead!! ;D I also have some Beartooth .413" cast bullets to try, but I don't think they'd be the best for any longer range shooting, dunno what their BC is, but it's likely fairly low compared to the X.

Tim

Trajectory for Barnes .411 dia (405 Win) 300 gr. X at 2400 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.401   0.401   0.401   0.401   0.401
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2400   2400   2400   2400
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2400.0   3836.3   3.20   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2347.4   3670.0   3.13   -0.19   0.43   0.0   0.031598238
50   2295.5   3509.4   3.06   -0.78   1.96   0.0   0.063907908
75   2244.2   3354.3   2.99   -1.77   3.08   0.0   0.096952416
100   2193.5   3204.5   2.92   -3.2   3.77   0.0   0.130756417
125   2143.4   3059.9   2.86   -5.08   4.01   0.0   0.165345629
150   2094.0   2920.5   2.79   -7.44   3.77   0.0   0.200746673
175   2045.3   2786.2   2.72   -10.29   3.04   0.0   0.236987032
200   1997.3   2656.8   2.66   -13.65   1.79   0.0   0.274095122
225   1949.9   2532.3   2.60   -17.57   0.0   0.0   0.312100379
250   1903.2   2412.5   2.54   -22.05   -2.37   0.0   0.351033273
275   1857.3   2297.5   2.47   -27.13   -5.33   0.0   0.390925219
300   1812.1   2187.0   2.41   -32.85   -8.93   0.0   0.431808384
325   1767.7   2081.1   2.35   -39.22   -13.18   0.0   0.473715471
350   1724.1   1979.7   2.30   -46.29   -18.13   0.0   0.516679541
375   1681.3   1882.7   2.24   -54.09   -23.82   0.0   0.560733884
400   1639.4   1790.0   2.18   -62.66   -30.27   0.0   0.605911795
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2008, 06:24:31 AM »
My neighbor Mike ordered a .416 Rigby barrel for his Encore.  He was planning a trip down to the coast for Brown Bear.  I mentioned that the .416 would be a handful in an Encore.  Mike is a big boy, 6'5" about 250 lbs of solid muscle.  The broadest shoulders I ever saw on a man.     When it came in he mounted a scope with lots of eye relief.  Went to the store and bought a box of shells and went to the range without telling anyone.  Just happened I was there when he arrived.  I went over and we talked a bit, offered the use of my lead sled so he could get sighted in.  Mike said "Na, it won't be that bad".  So I went back to what I was doing.  Heard Mike fire his first round, then a load experlative.  I looked over at Mike, blood was flowing freely from his head.  I went over and Mike had a gash above his eye.  I don't mean a usual scope bite, I mean a big cut about three inches wide, with the skin peeled up about an inch.  My concern was about his eye.  Mike said his eye was OK it was just skin torn.  I loaded our guns into his truck and headed to the Hospital.  The emergency room folks laughed and really ribbed Mike about his big OHWEE.  Mike said afterwards the seven stitches weren't bad, it was the cleaning of the area before they could pull the skin back down and stitch it in place that was the bad part.  Mikes face swelled up to the point he could not drive of do much of anything.  Swelling went from his nose to his ear, and from his cheek to the top of his forehead.  That area also turned almost black, and stayed bruised for two weeks.  Mike now looks really rugged, like a real Alaskan.  The first thing people notice is his crooked eyebrow, with two bald spots.  Then you see the scare.  Mike calls it "The badge of a shooter".  Don't know what he did with that barrel, he has not brought it to the range since that day.


Evidently Mike's scope didn't have as much eye relief as he needed or he crawled the stock a little too much!! :o

Great story as usual Rog, thanks for sharing. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2008, 06:36:19 AM »
The  .411 JDJ and the .430 JDJ would maybe work, both have a rim and have 06 like configuration. They are very powerful cartridges and are based on the 444 Marlin case.

The Rigby case is proprietary cartridge and in low demand, ammo is made in England, no they are not made of Titanium. $10.00 a round
is not unreasonable for custom made ammo. If you have enough money to hunt dangerous game in Africa. Then a couple of boxes of Rigby ammo or other big game ammo is just chicken feed.

A double gun made for the Rigby goes anywhere from 15 to 40 thousand bucks. A bolt gun perhaps 4-5 thou. A Ruger #1 in many
of the dangerous game cartridges is your best buy for $950, that would be my choice.

Re- working a Handi including the purchase will buy you a nice used
Ruger #1. I saw a 458 Win with a 4x scope 95%, 350gr bullet mould, 22 cal insert barrel, empty brass, some cast bullet for $800.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline tykempster

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Re: 416 rigby
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2008, 03:23:31 PM »
400 PDK is a interesting cartridge.  Can't list the site the maker is on however...

30-06 totally maximized.