Author Topic: Shot loads in a rifle (Read 906 times)

tykempster · « **on:** July 20, 2008, 02:46:24 PM »

So I'm interested in some shot loads for my 45-120. It will be able to hold a large amount of shot, enough to be useful I'm hoping. How can I keep the shot from fouling my bore however? My first load idea was 20 grains Unique, a wad of some sort, shot, then another wad that was kept in place by wax or something. I'm worried about shot leaving plenty of lead in the barrel. I have seen the shot capsules for 45 Colt, but I could probably fit 3 of them in a 45-120 case, they would get expensive if I shot many of them. Any other ideas to keep the shot from touching the barrel? I figure I might even get close to 3/4 of an ounce of shot in that cavernous case. More than a .410 I'm guessing at least.

dk17hmr · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2008, 02:55:45 PM »

I made some one time for my 45-70, I dont remember the powde charge. Anyways I loaded the charge and put a fiber wad over top of that then put my shot in, and seated a 240gr cast bullet on top. A round ball would probably work better then the pistol bullet I wrapped in teflon tap. The bullet would hit close to point of aim and the shot was all over the place at 25 yards.

You probably could load 4-5 round balls in your 45-120 cases, it is common practice on the cast bullet forum to load 3 round balls in a 45-70 with a light load of unique for small game hunting.

tykempster · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2008, 03:03:20 PM »

Where can I get round balls that would fit my barrel well? All I can find is .457 at the most.

dk17hmr · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2008, 03:09:06 PM »

.457 store bought round balls will work. Just get some lee alox tumble lube and lube em up and load...457's are what the guys over at cast bullet forum use.

tykempster · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2008, 03:11:01 PM »

I want a nice subsonic load. Do you think 20 grains Unique would be speedy enough to be useful, but still subsonic?

dk17hmr · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2008, 03:13:05 PM »

Got any trail boss? Try that out with 45-70 data maybe.

tykempster · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2008, 03:13:48 PM »

Nope, only Unique. I've used 10 grains Unique under a 405 grain cast bullet in my 45-70 and it is subsonic.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2008, 03:43:29 PM »

ty

Your going to run into some of the same problem that plages the 45LC / 410 Handi as well as the TC barrels , but maybe not as bad as you will not have a shot cup to grab the rifling .

I have done this in a 45LC revolver using load data for cast bullets with the same weight as the shot charge , a plain over powder wad can be cut from a old shot shell box and use the same to cover the shot with a dab of white glue to hold it in place .

stimpy

tykempster · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2008, 04:10:00 PM »

Will I get bad leading of the barrel?

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2008, 04:22:10 PM »

ty

With the new chilled shot I doubt it will be a problem , you will get some but not enough to cause a major issue , no more than cast bullets from what I have found in my handguns anyhow .

stimpy

tykempster · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2008, 05:05:18 PM »

Well if it's less than an ounce of shot I'll just try 10 grains Unique. Shoots a 405 grain cast bullet at a relatively good rate of speed from my 45-70.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2008, 05:25:00 PM »

You are going to find that the pattern you shoot will be horrible. I do not care if you use a shot cup or not, the shot will pick up the rifling and begin to spin before it reaches the end of the barrel. Once it starts to spin the pattern will grow rapidly with a hole in the middle. The further you get away from the barrel the bigger the hole gets. I can't imagine it would be very effective much beyond 15 yards, if that far. I have a T/C 44 mag barrel with a screw in choke for shot. The choke had straight cut grooves in it to stop the rotation of the shot. They made special shot cups a little more than 1 1/2" long. It still was not as effective as a .410. Here is a picture of the concept. (I still have a few)

I would think you would do better with a series of round balls. I would think they would stay on line better, especially if you are talking 25 yards or more. Good Luck and Good Shooting

tykempster · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2008, 05:38:35 PM »

Wow, that would hold a lot of shot!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2008, 05:53:14 PM »

Tyler, if you want some plinking loads, get some of the 150gr collar buttons($9/100) from Western, loaded on top of cheerios(Trailboss) they should work for ya. A round ball loaded in a .457"-.458" sabot should also work for small game. Forget the shot, go down to the Traditional Muzzleloading forum and read all about shooting shot in a rifled bore, not good for much but snakes as LaOtto said.

Tim

http://westernbullet.com/cbip/cbip.html

500gr Speer African Grand Slam - 300gr NP - 150gr Collar Button

tykempster · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2008, 06:00:51 PM »

I can always do collar buttons in the 45-70, just thought the 45-120 might hold enough shot to do something. 5 round balls sounds intriguing, I'm going to graf's tomorrow, I'll see about getting some.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2008, 05:42:56 AM »

Birdshot from a rifled barrel generally tends to be pretty worthless beyond a few feet. I like to experiment with odd-ball loads and have loaded birdshot in .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .45/70 and .444 with pretty much the same result in all, the rifling just spins the shot out in a radial pattern, scattering so wild as to be useless other than for snakes at 10 feet.
Your mention of 3/4 ounces of shot and 20 grains of Unique scares me! You have to remember that when you fill the case with lead it is not at all like a bullet seated normally, you cannot just use the data for a bullet of similar weight. You cannot use 45/70 or 45/120 data at all but should use .410 shotgun data. All in all, it is not worth the bother.
I also tried loads 45/70 with three .457 roundballs and at 65 yards only one ball would even hit the 18x24" target. At 35 yards sometimes two balls would hit somewhere on the target but unlikely to be anywhere near the point of aim. Really, even if they shot accurately, I can't think of anything they could do that a single bullet wouldn't do better. Five .457 balls would total about 715 grains and once again, you cannot use the same powder charges you would use with a 715 grain bullet, even if you could find data for such a bullet. When you fill the case with lead, smokeless powder will not behave at all the same as when loaded with normal air space.
I understand your desire to experiment but please abandon this one, even a very experienced handloader would we skating on thin ice when working with such bizarre loads with no published data. I'd not like to see you on You Tube blowing your face off!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2008, 06:32:04 AM »

I agree with CJ, I've tested double balls in a muzzleloader for a pole cut match, they don't hit POA or anywhere near it, a well place singe ball is much more effective. Also, as CJ pointed out, using Richard's data for the 720gr .458" FNGC would not be prudent for exactly the reason CJ pointed out, the round balls don't occupy the same space as the single projectile and will drastically increase pressure. That point is easy to see in QL when COL is changed, a safe load can become an extremely dangerous load just by seating deeper.

Tim

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2008, 07:43:58 AM »

CJ & Tim bring up a very valid point , what load work I have done with shot has been in Handguns only and that was done with some very hard looks at what and how the shot would sit in the case as compaired to bullet placement in the same rounds .

With out some very fine guildlines as to loading data this project should NOT be considered safe and with the cost of having a 410 barrel fitted to your frame there just seems to be much better ways to get to the same goal .

We as Handloaders are always looking for new ways to improve the guns that we have but that should not be done in a way that can cause any danger to ourselves or others .

Richard

Sourdough · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2008, 07:44:59 AM »

I have a .45/410 T/C, with the straight cut screw in choke for 410s and it still scatters them bad. Not much good beyond 15 to 20ft. But then that is where we shoot grouse up here, usually 10 to 15 ft, so it works great for me.

tykempster · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2008, 09:32:56 AM »

Guess I'll stick to 45-70 for plinking.

tykempster · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2008, 12:38:16 PM »

2.5 grains Unique with a round ball on top of the powder=enough to kill a sparrow, but not enough to penetrate into a apple juice jug filled with water.

tykempster · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2008, 01:15:49 PM »

5 grains still doesn't go into the apple juice jug. 8 grains is supposedly around 1200 fps, so if we guess and extrapolate 700 fps, I can't believe it doesn't go into a water filled jug. 2.5 grains is slow, slow, slow, you can see it flying in the scope. Both go through 1/2" of plywood. Here's a 3 shot group at 25 yards from the sitting position. The real low one sounded like water filling up a hose, blooooooop! It looked pitiful through my scoped view.

I don't have any cast bullet lube, so I used a bit of Lee sizing lube. The ball goes right on top of the powder, tamped down a bit like you would a muzzleloader. Obviously there are some inconsistencies. I take out my primer with a 45-120 die so I don't resize the case. A resized case won't even let the ball past the mouth of the case.