What's Acceptable Accuracy for varmint Rifle?

[Revolver Nuts]

I have a new Kimber 84 Varmint rifle with stainless fluted barrel and 4-12 Leupold scope in 22-250.
I finally got to do some shooting with it last weekend and have the following results at 100 yards with factory ammo (I do not reload at this time).

Winchester 40 gr.ballistic silver tip 3 shots 3/8"; then 2 fliers 1st opened group to 3/4", 2nd opened group to 1 1/2"

Winchester 55 gr.ballistic silver tip 3 shots 7/16"; then 2 fliers 1st opened group to 5/8", 2nd opened group to 1"

Hornady 55 gr. 3 shots 5/8"; then 2 fliers 1st opened group to 7/8", 2nd opened group to 1 1/4"

(3) Remington different loads all 55 gr. 3-5 shot groups ranged from 1" to 1 1/4"

(3) Federal different loads all 55 gr. 3-5 shot groups ranged from 1" to 2"

Disregarding the Remington and federal results and hoping some of the Winchester and Hornady fliers were me and not the gun do the above results appear to be acceptable for a straight factory rig?

Thanks for you response.

[Don Fischer]

The question is not what we think, it's what do you think? How well do you shoot with any of your other rifles?

[Revolver Nuts]

The question is not what we think, it's what do you think? How well do you shoot with any of your other rifles?

Other than a Browning 22 LR, this Kimber is the only other rifle that I currently own. I am mostly a hand gunner. Here in Upstate NY big game hunting (deer and black bears) is restricted to shotguns with slugs. I have a custom build 12 ga. pump that will consistently put 5 shot Remington Copper Sabot groups into 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards.

[Cement Man]

I don't know much about the Kimber Varmint rifle, or your shooting/cleaning procedures but I think Don's question is right on.  What do you think, and how well can you shoot? 
I have many rifles, none of which (to my knowledge) shoots everything well, so your variances with different ammo is to be expected, and your varied results seem pretty typical.  With factory ammo, you seem to be doing pretty darn well.  Factory ammo + factory rifle, 3 shot groups sub .5moa, then a "flier" opens the groups to 5/8", or 3/4", or 7/8"?
Are you letting the barrel cool adequately?  Seems that your first 3 shots are nice and tight and then things start to open up.    What kind of rest are you using?  Wind?
Just my opinion - but from what you've related, I think your results are very acceptable.  You haven't shot that rig a whole lot yet, and I think as you and the bore "settle in", and identify the best ammo (there's a lot more ammo to try also), maybe start handloading, you are likely to see better consistency and improved results.  So far - so good, I think.

[Catfish]

If your happy with these group then all is well. From what your tell me about the flier though I would guess that ether your barrel is not floated and you are getting barrel heating or you need to have your action bedded. A friend had a new Cooper out the other day that was doing the same thing. Well it was shooting groups of 2`s.  2 in 1 hole then then 2 in another. My cheap old CZ could not touch his 2 shot groups, but with 5 shot groups was flat flat tearing him up.

[beemanbeme]

I wouldn't exactly call a Kimber a "factory" rifle.  but anyway, I'd say you had a pretty good example of what you can do with store bought ammo.  Which wasn't bad.  You'll notice also that the rifle seems to have a decided preference for which ammo it likes.  As you shoot it more, the rifle will get better and so will you. I don't know if I need to tell you or not but watch your heat.  Use a good deal of disclipine in your rate of fire.  Wait at least 1 minute between shots.  You should be able to pick the rifle up by the barrel at any time. 
What sort of bench set-up were you using? 

[Will_C]

Factory ammo, not too bad. I would question your bench technique, but anyone who can shoot a 1.5" group with a shotgun has my admiration!
Will

[bobg]

        This is  just my opinion. I was always happy with a varmint rifle that shot 1 1/2" groups. Killed alot of woodchucks with an old savage 222 that would never shoot better than that. Then i found out there were guns that would shoot better than 1 1/2".  I own two of them. A Savage in 204 and a Ruger in 22-250. Now i won't keep a gun that doesn't shoot under an inch. That being said i think you will kill a lot of varmints with a 1 1/2" grouping gun.

[Revolver Nuts]

Thanks everyone for the replies and pointers.

Just to address a few of the questions that were asked.

- I shot off of contoured leather shooting bags loaded with sand
- The barrel never got hot to touch. It never was to hot to be even uncomfortable to touch. Actually I keep checking for heat and it felt just slightly warm to the touch. It was only about 40 degrees the day I shot.
- My bench technique may not be the best. I haven't done any long gun shooting for accuracy since having the slug gun built about 15 years ago.
- On their website Kimber states that my model is glass bedded. However, I cannot find anything on whether the barrel is floating or not.
- There was a slight wind blowing quartering in over my right shoulder. I would guess it would not have much effect as it was coming mostly from behind me.

Any additional comments would be appreciated also.

Thanks,
Revolver Nuts

[Slamfire]

Well, for pasture griz in the east, jacks in the west, and 'yotes wherever you find 'em, it sounds like a fine rifle. I wouldn't take it to a dog town though. 
When workin' up a load, I chose a bullet that I think will perform the way I want, a powder charge that'll give me the velocity I want, and then experiment with the bullet seatin' depth to fine tune the accuracy. You can always do all the old beddin' tricks, any wooden stock can move around for the first 20 years or so, after that they get pretty stable. 

[mjbgalt]

if a varmint gun i buy is over a half inch after working up the best load for it I send it on to a new home. i want to hit very small targets a long way off and i don't have the patience for expensive items not doing what i bought them for.

i have had a half dozen or so varmint guns in the last few years and i have only sent one packing, so that half inch group isn't that tough to come by with the right loads and a trigger job.

-Matt

[Qaz]

 Sorry folks, but that kind of accuracy sucks for a rifle that expensive and of that quality. To be honest, the more expensive the rifle, the less picky it should be about ammo too. Too many good shooting varmint guns around to waste time on a bad one.

Qaz





 

[Cement Man]

Oh yeah, after about 25 + ? shots of assorted factory ammo under very minimally described circumstances you should dump that rifle.   

Revolver Nuts,
Give yourself and the rifle more shooting to settle in.  Take your time, keep it clean, check out more ammo and try to look at the variables, your technique, and suggestions you have here.  You may indeed have a very fine shooting rifle there.  If you can't get results you like, I'd see what Kimber will do about it.  From everything I see and hear, they are a fine company.   I would agree that .5 MOA would be a great standard for a varmint rig, but that rarely happens with a few shots out of the first few boxes of factory ammo that you buy.  I don't care what you paid for the rifle.  I don't think you have done anywhere near enough shooting to declare that you and this rifle, with the proper ammo, can't achieve much better results.  In the end, if you need to let Kimber look at it, what's $25 shipping and a couple of weeks compared to what $$ you will lose on that rifle if you dump it?

A lot of times when I peruse the used gun racks at stores I wonder how many "were inaccurate" because they were judged prematurely.  I know that some of the most  superbly accurate handguns I bought were judged that way after their owners tried their first box of ammo and gave up.  Most people can't shoot as well as the numbers they read about. 

You paid good money and put together a quality rig that you have every right to expect excellent performance from.  I'd give yourself, the rifle, and Kimber (if necessary) more of a chance.

[Graybeard]

I'm sure everyone has their own set of criteria as to what's "good enough" in each rifle type. For varmint rifles mine has always been that I expect pretty much everything I feed it to shoot under an inch at 100 yards for five shot groups. I also expect selected loads that the rifle seems to like to stay under 3/4 inch and expect most of them to stay under 1/2 inch.

So far I've never had a Remington Model 700 Varmint rifle fail to live up to that standard. In fact all of them I've owned I've been able with a bit of load development to find loads that will consistently shoot in the .2's to .3's with those loads it likes. With Hornady's Custom ammo in .223 using their lightest bullet (can't remember if theirs is the 55 or 58 grain) it shot in the .1's from my last couple rifles.

[Revolver Nuts]

I have no intention of giving up on myself or the gun at this point.

I was only wondering, based on the experience of those who read this board, what reasonable expectations would be for a rifle of this quality shooting factory ammo.

I was studying my targets this morning and did notice something that may be of importance. In almost all instances the fliers went high and left. I am a right hand shooter.

Does this give any evidence of something I should be looking for?

Thanks,
Revolver Nuts

[beemanbeme]

I think that's a good idea.  Shoot more and brush up on your bench technique. IMO you are hampering yourself by using store bought ammo.  You do really need to get into reloading if you plan on doing much shooting.  You don't need to invest the farm to do it neither.  A Lee loader, a Lee auto prime, a mid-range-priced scale, powder, primers, and bullets and you're ready to go.  Probably under $100. And it's a kitchen table set-up. AND  you'll craft better ammo than you can buy.

I totally agree with Cement Man.  Wonder how many rifles have been sent down the road because they wouldn't shoot 1" when it was the shooter that couldn't shoot 1".  Just 'cause you have all the toys don't make you Bill Dance.

[Graybeard]

Today's factory ammo is good enough that if you experiment you should be able to find loads which in your gun will give you sub MOA and perhaps even sub 1/2 MOA accuracy IF the gun and IF the shooter are both up to the task. As I mentioned in my R700 varmint rifles that factory load from Hornady with their lightest bullet has proven to be one of the most accurate loads I've ever fired in any gun.

You'll have to experiment if you want sub MOA or better level of accuracy and that's cheaper and easier with your own hand loads but is do able with factory ammo these days. Lots of it is as good as it gets and we can't do better reloading but we can better match it to our rifles by reloading.

[skb2706]

Sorry folks, but that kind of accuracy stinks for a rifle that expensive and of that quality. To be honest, the more expensive the rifle, the less picky it should be about ammo too. Too many good shooting varmint guns around to waste time on a bad one.

Qaz





 

Sure glad he said it...cause I was thinking it. There are a ton of varmint rifles costing half as much that will shoot much better. If you consider the size of a prairie dog and your groups, about half of them are safe out past 200 yds. or so. Thats a real crippler for a 22-250.

[jro45]

With my 22-250 I can shoot a three shot group thats 1/2" at 100 yds. Its a Remington 700 action.

[Qaz]

 I am with Graybeard, I haven't had a bad shooting Remington and I love the Hornady Ammo, it shoots great. Here is my take on this; If I buy an inexpensive gun, I expect I will need to play with it to shoot really well, I hope I don't, but I know I may. The more the gun costs the less I should have to mess with it. Kimbers, Coopers, ect..., it should shoot great from the get go. After all, they are asking near custom or custom gun prices, and should shoot like one. Man, alot of you don't expect much value for your money.

Qaz

[OLDHandgunner]

What's acceptable for me for varmints ( including crows ) is around a  1/2" group in my 22 cal. rifles. I shoot 22 Hornet, 222, 223 & 22-250. With a little work on the reloading bench I've been able to get most of them to shoot in the 1/2" group range. People have to remember that if you don't shoot alot, have good equipment, have good shooting habits and a good bench to shoot off from these groups won't happen. I haven't been shooting as must as I use to and my groups show it. But I've been getting back into shooting more lately because my grandkids are starting to shoot now. Have to get them started out right.

[Cement Man]

Qaz,
It's because one does expect good value for their money that they should be methodical, analytical, and deliberate when wringing out a new rig and ammo.  Revolver Nuts is starting out with some respectable 3 shot groups (3 of them around sub .5 moa), everything (known and unknown) considered.  Some of us have been just trying to offer some constructive advice and help. OK? I think it is way premature to proclaim the rifle to be a clunker.  If you think expensive rifles will shoot everything out of a box well - well, you better stick with your Remingtons and Hornadys because you will be disappointed and disillusioned.  I happen to like Hornady ammunition myself, but change bullet weights or brands in some of my rifles, especially with certain cartridges and accuracy changes immensely.  In one of my rifles it might be Hornadys, in another of the same caliber it might be another brand that shoots the best.  I'm glad I have taken the time and effort to learn what my rifles do well with.  Some are very inexpensive and some are custom - and they would often disprove your "value" speculation as performance relating to cost.  As far as what value I expect for my money, you have no clue. 
But I do think a pretty good definition of someone who doesn't expect much value for his money would be to buy a Kimber and a Leupold rig, shoot a few rounds out of a few boxes of random factory ammo, not be sure if the groups are opening up because of ammo, technique, or some other reason, and then follow the advice of someone who tells him there are "too many good shooting guns around to waste time on a bad one".
 

[kudzu]

R nuts, seems like your first 3 shots per group are fine. then you get your fliers. May be barrel heat related.
As to factory ammo. My 22-250 encore Pro Hunter will cloverleaf groups at 100 with the fac. rem 50gr accutips. I would rather shoot fac if Ican  find what I want, but sometimes I have to hit the loading bench.
Good luck,DM

[1armoured]

I think you need to persevere with the rifle, and maybe look at your equipment,  and your technique.

I have .22Hornet, .222 and .223 and they all shoot much the same, under a minute.
My technique and bench gear probably leaves much to be desired !
Had to work at a couple of the triggers, to get them to my satisfaction.

On a good day, I can get .5 at 100mtrs and  1.5" at 200.

I load my own, as the results tend to be more consistent.

cheers,
Sean in 'Godzone'

[Doesniper]

With light weight bullets a little wind will move the bullet some. If the wind was coming in behind you, blowing to the left from the right, it will move the bullet left and up. If you shoot with the wind blowing to the right from the left, it will move your bullet right and down. Try shooting with wind flags of some sort, placed every 20 yards or so. You may be surprised at the differences in wind direction and speed between each flag.
The factory ammo limits you from knowing your rifles potential. Differences in cases will cause variances in velocities and impact points. Seating depths are not always uniform or ideal, and can make a huge difference in accuracy.
I sounds like the gun has good potential. Reloading and flags will let you know for sure.

[ssghelmick]

I'm just wondering if you broke in the barrel? I didn't see anyone ask that question yet unless I missed it. My next question is how many rounds do you have through the barrel at this point?

I think with a little time and practice the rifle will come around and satisfy your accuracy needs. I also would like to say that while I have alot of rifles that are capable of shooting MOA or better, the unfortunate thing about that is, I am not always capable of shooting MOA. I also have some rifles that don't soot MOA, I call them hunting rifles.

One other thing I am certain of is, if you talk to enough shooters you will find that most will tell you that all their rifles shoot MOA all of the time. I wouldn't believe everything you read or hear.

[Coyote Hunter]

Dad gave me his well-used Savage 110E in .22-250.  During various range sessions I shot a number of 3-shot groups at 100 that I could cover with a dime.  My Ruger .22-250 VT has put 4 into 0.5" at 200, and my sporter-weight Ruger in .257 Bob has gone 3 shots for 0.232" at 100.

I'd tune the trigger, float and possibly bed the action, and make sure the problem wasn't the scope or loose screws.  Then if I wasn't shooting 0.5" or better at 100 I'd make some radical changes.

[nofun1]

All good tips to determine if its you or the gun, once you have decided that its not the gun. Than ask yourself what your going to do with it. a lot of big game hunters are tickled with 1.5" at 100. A 1" gun will kill all the chucks you can find out to 250 if your set up on a dog town where 500+ yards are the game than you better have a 1/2" gun a good rest and know how to use them. I have become accuracy obsessed in the last 5 years. I traded of some beautiful guns until I realized I was the problem. I'd give anything to get back a 6mm I traded not realizing I couldn't shoot. I know this is remedial but in case you haven't thought of this heres the math 1" @100 =2"@ 200 3"@ 300 etc. thats assuming you have no wind and no other environmental factors. I heard that .001" of movement at the bench is 1/8" at 100. I sometimes rest my thumb on my rear bag and found that sends my shots a little left. I only notice that on paper. This is a sick sport for the obsessed, the better you get the more you learn the more you realize there is to learn. and just wait till you reload that will really mess your head up. Enjoy and congrats on a nice rifle. 

[ssghelmick]

I'm curious to know how many people believe that a 3 round group is enough to determine MOA. Three round groups are good for big game rifles, but true precision shooting takes 5 round groups to determine MOA. I wonder how many guys shoot 1 or 2 nice three round groups and then claim their rifle is 1/2" MOA. Remember to be a true MOA rifle it must shoot 5 round groups into an 1'' at 100 yrds all of the time not just once in a while.

Every rifle I own will shoot a 1" three round group on occasion some will do it most of the time but that does not mean they are all MOA rifles. Only the rifle that shoots 5 shot groups at 100 into an inch do I consider MOA rifles.

[beemanbeme]

I agree but don't forget, in cyberspace an inch can be whatever you want it to be.   
I think its already been posted but I daresay there are more 1 inch rifles out there (or ones with that potential) than there are 1 inch shooters.