Author Topic: 223 accuracy, not good enough  (Read 1338 times)

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Offline 358jdj

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223 accuracy, not good enough
« on: March 07, 2007, 10:39:31 AM »
I recently acquired a blue TC Super 14 in 223.  Having tried about a dozen different handloads and 3 factory loads, I just can't get the accuracy I need or expect out of the barrel.  Yesterday my best five shot group at 100 yards was 2 7/16 inches.  I shot the group off a bipod, prone with a sandbag under the grip.  I am using a 2x7 Simmons scope set on 7 power.

I can shoot better groups than this with my 7X30 waters and 358jdj.  Does nayone have any suggestions other than sell the barrel and try again?

Offline KN

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 11:21:40 AM »
Assuming your shooting skills and techniques are good the first thing I would try is re-crowning the barrel. KN

Offline chuck m

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2007, 11:31:19 AM »
Have you checked your pin to make sure it is not worn? Also is you sitghts tight?

chuck m

Offline BCB

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 12:08:58 PM »
358jdj,
I have two 223 Remington barrels.  One is a Super 14” and the other is a 16”.  The 14” barrel was absolutely the hardest barrel I have every owned to get to shoot M.O.A.  (I lied…I have a 44 Magnum—now 445 SM that still won’t shoot M.O.A.).  Regardless, there are a couple of things with the 223 barrel.  I found that the barrels are very rough when new.  I keep very close records as to the number of rounds fired through the 14” before I ALMOST gave up on it.  I fired nearly 400 rounds through it.  I finally started cleaning aggressively.  By that I mean using Sweet’s 7.62, J&B Bore Cleaner, and a steel brush.  Shoot and Clean…Shoot and Clean… Shoot and Clean…Shoot and Clean… Shoot and Clean…Shoot and Clean… Shoot and Clean…Shoot and Clean…You get the picture!!!  Much of the inaccuracy may be copper fouling, especially if you are using a ball type powder and jacketed bullets.  I still use H-335 and WC-844 which are ball powders and produce excellent accuracy in both barrels.  Finally, the 14” started shooting sub-M.O.A. groups with Hornady 50 grain SPSSP bullets and continues to this day.  The 16” was purchased used and it shoots sub-M.O.A. groups from the first day I tried it.  I did drop down to the 40 grain V-Max bullet for this barrel and I have shot honest 0.75”+ groups at 200 yards.
Optics is another factor along with a very good bench rest.  I use only sandbags for my bench shooting.  Both barrels are topped with a Burris 3x-12x ‘scope.  Good-luck…BCB

Offline Bullseye

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2007, 02:12:43 PM »
Not sure which factory loads you have tried.  My Super 14 and 23" barrel always shot the cheap Winchester White box Varmit round sub MOA.  My relaods will also do that good with very little tinkering using 50gr V-Max and IMR4198 powder.

Hope that might help and good luck.  Hope you just do not have a bum barrel, it does happen.

Offline Hopalong7

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2007, 02:55:55 PM »
My experience with .223 barrels is pretty similiar to BCB's.  I'd agressively clean it and shoot it again with whatever shot the best before.  If accuracy improves and then starts go south again, I'd clean it throughly again and then use lots and lots of JB and elbow grease.  Hand lap the heck out of that thing or maybe use a fire lapping kit on it.  If it still didn't come around move on to the other suggestions.  Good Luck! Walt

Offline jhalcott

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2007, 03:09:32 PM »
  358jdj, nice caliber that! As to your accuracy problem, MAYBE, it is your scope. I have a 7-30 barrel that HAD a Simmons 2x7 scope on it and I was having similar results to yours. I decided to take the scope off and use it on another 14" barrel. The next time I took the 7-30 out I put a 4x Leupold on it Just so I could burn up the ammo. The junk ammo I was burning up shot 1" groups of the rest. I took the .223 14" bbl with the Simmons and got larger groups than I ever did with it. I have that scope on my gun rack so I can remember what I almost traded off.

Offline klong

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2007, 04:06:18 PM »
You have some good advice here. My 14" 223 will shoot everything I have tried (no factory all handloads) into less than 1" at 100 yards. I have a Bushnell 4x12 rifle scope on it.

Offline Heavy C

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 07:43:52 AM »
I recently acquired a blue TC Super 14 in 223.  Having tried about a dozen different handloads and 3 factory loads, I just can't get the accuracy I need or expect out of the barrel.  Yesterday my best five shot group at 100 yards was 2 7/16 inches.  I shot the group off a bipod, prone with a sandbag under the grip.  I am using a 2x7 Simmons scope set on 7 power.

I can shoot better groups than this with my 7X30 waters and 358jdj.  Does nayone have any suggestions other than sell the barrel and try again?

What bullet weights are you shooting?  Are any of them heavier than 55 grains?

Offline 358jdj

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 08:16:01 AM »
The bullet weights I have been trying range from 45 grain, bulk remington and 45 grain Sierras to 55 grain Dogtowns.  The majority of the reloads have been based on the 45 grain bullets.  Powders include Blue Dot for reduced loads to Varget and H322 for full house loads.  Lake City Brass, Remington Bench Rest primers.

Factory stuff has been Winchester White Box 45 grainers, Ultramax 50 grainers and some cheapo Wolf's in 55 grain.

All but the Wolf's shoot well out of my AR15 (I know, different twist, barrel etc.).

I bought the barrel used in great appearing shape.  I have never gotten real aggressive with cleaning.  I have just used a bore snake and CLP like I do on the AR15.  Guess I will try a more aggressive brush and some Sweets.

Thanks for the help guys.  To fit the arsenal I am making around my Contender (223, 7X30, 30/40 Krag and 358jdj) I gotta make this thing shoot MOA or less.

Offline BCB

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 12:31:52 PM »
358jdj,

The clue might be that you are only using minimal cleaning for that 223 bore.  So, as I suggested, cleaning thoroughly until the bore smoothes from some prolonged use might help improve accuracy.

Varget and H-332 are good powders for the 223, but I think that H-335 (surplus version WC-844) and 748 might be better choices.  Yet, Varget falls between H-335 and 748 on the burning rate scale, so it might work for you under the right combination. 
Lake City brass is very good as far as I am concerned.  I am using LC-84 and LC-85 vintage. I have had my best accuracy with it and Federal brass.

I have never had good accuracy with bullets over 50 grains.  I was actually also surprised that the 40 grain V-Max that I have been using in my 16” barrel was so accurate—but it sure is.  Velocity is 2940 fps with the 50’s and 3299 with the 40’s.

I think a super good cleaning would be where I would start.  Good-luck…BCB

Offline Heavy C

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2007, 03:34:19 AM »
The twist rate on these barrels should stabilize those bullet weights.  However my barrel didn't care for 45 gr Winchester white box at all.  It did a lot better with the Wolf 55 gr bullets.  Oddly enough my carbine 223 will shoot one ragged hole with the 45 gr Winchester white box ammo all day long.  Your barrel might like something in between those weights.  Definitely a trial and error process.

I would also second cleaning the barrel extremely well; especially after the Wolf ammo.

Offline SD Handgunner

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2007, 09:32:22 AM »
I recently acquired a blue TC Super 14 in 223.  Having tried about a dozen different handloads and 3 factory loads, I just can't get the accuracy I need or expect out of the barrel.  Yesterday my best five shot group at 100 yards was 2 7/16 inches.  I shot the group off a bipod, prone with a sandbag under the grip.  I am using a 2x7 Simmons scope set on 7 power.

I can shoot better groups than this with my 7X30 waters and 358jdj.  Does nayone have any suggestions other than sell the barrel and try again?

Since this barrel has never shot to your expectations I would suspect a couple of things.

#1 would be a terriblly copper fouled barrel. Get some Butches Bore Shine or Shooters Choice and run about a dozen patches soaked in this solvent through the bore. Follow this with a dozen passes throug the bore with a proper sized phospher bronze brush. Once the brushing is done then keep pushing patches soaked in solvent through the bore until it is clean, the dry patch until clean and dry. Granted this is just my opinion but I do not think a Bore Snake can replace cleaning with a good solvent, patches with a proper sized brass jag and a bruch when needed.

(I also like to polish the bores with FLITZ BORE POLISH but a lot of guys are really queezy about putting any kind of abrasive in their barrels. The idea behing this poilshing is to smooth out any imprefections. You can generally feel the difference in 3 or 4 patches coated with FLITZ BORE POLISH run thorugh the bore on a proper sized brass jag. I generally coat a patch with FLITZ BORE POLISH and push it from breech to muzzle without exiting the muzzle and then back to the breech. I generally do this from 10 to 20 strokes per patch. Like I stated you'll know when you are done as you'll feel the difference as you push the patch through the bore. I have found that by doing this my barrels do not seem to foul nearly as quickly.)

#2 might be a dinged up muzzle crown. With a magnifcying glass and under a good light source hold the muzzle at a 45 degree angle to you and examine the muzzle crown really good. I actually had a T/C Barrel that was only radiused on one side. The other side of the crown actually had a raised burr on it. A simple 10 minute muzzle recrowning job made it shoot like a champ.

#3 I am assuming you have used this scope on other Handguns, but you may well be experiencing Scope Parallax. With the Handgun sitting on a solid rest align the crosshairs on a target. Without touching the gun move your eye left & right and up & down. If you get any movement at all of the crosshairs on the target you have Parallax.

Since you just aquired this barrel I am assuming the scope mount is tight. Prior to mounting the scope mount did you check to ensure you scope mount screws are not bottoming out in the holes before they are tight to the mount? I have run into this before also in that I thought the mount was tight, but in reality the screws were slightly bottom out in the bottom of the screw holes in the barrel and the mount could / would shift ever so slightly under recoil.

There are a lot of possibilities that could cause this. One thing to also check may be if the chamber is oversized and you actually have an excess headspace condition.

Good luck. I know a lot of people that have not had good luck with T/C .223 Barrels. I am not one of those people. I have had several T/C .223 Barrels over the years, Blues and Stainless, 10" and Super 14's. Granted some were a bit more finicky about what they wanted to shoot good but the bottom line is I was always satisfied with the accuracy.

Larry
T/C Handguns, one good shot for your moment of truth !

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 02:27:51 PM »
I bot a .223 factory 23" T\C (I think it was a 23") 2 years ago. It was driving me nutz for about a month and a half as I had tried a bunch of bullet\powder combinations. I finally tried a 40 grain Nosler balistic tip over the maximum load of BL-C2. At 100 yards I can cover a 5 shot group with a quarter. Groundhogs at 400 yards don't have a chance......or at least if I miss 'em, it's not the guns fault.

So, if you have a buddy that has some BL-C2, borrow some and give it a try. Oh, I just used the SAMI OAL max.

Dave.

Offline SD Handgunner

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2007, 11:24:36 AM »
I picked up a new Stainless-Steel G2 Contender last December with a Stainless-Steel Super 14 .223 Barrel. I promptly mounted a 3x12x32mm Burris LER Fine Plex - PA Handgun Scope on this Barrel via a Weaver Base & Weaver Rings. At the time I only had one load on hand, and used that particular load (40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded with IMR-4198) to break in the barrel and get the Scope sighted in.

Well since then I have aquired / assembled a few more loads to test. Well today was a glorous day in northeast South Dakota, 41 degrees, sunshine and all but NO WIND. After lunch I loaded up and headed out to do some ammo testing.

First up I retested the above mentioned load (40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with IMR-4198). The average 5 shot group size from the bench at 100 yards for this load was right at 1.000".

Next up I tested another load with 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips but this time with Hodgdon's Benchmark Powder. Wow did this combination shoot ! The average 5 shot group size from the bench at 100 yards for this load was right at .629".

Next I again tested a load with the 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips but this time loaded with Alliant Blue Dot. This is a reduced velocity load, but not a reduced pressure load. I use this load for short range when a softer muzzle report is wanted, and also when less barrel heat is in order like shooting lots of rounds at Gophers. The average 5 shot group size from the bench at 100 yards for this load was right at 1.038".

Last up I tested some Winchester / USA White Box 45gr. Jacketed Hollow Point Factory Loads. This ammo is not worth considering in my particular barrel. In fact it was so bad I never even measured the groups, but suffice to say the squares on the targets I use are 1" squares and this load was + 2.000" for 5 shots from the bench at 100 yards. 

I was extremely pleased with the load with the 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Hodgdon's Benchmark. I have come to really like this powder for the .223. I had a Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .223 that just loved 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Hodgdon's Benchmark with most groups putting 5 rounds into 1/2" at 100 yards from the bench. I have also have excellent results with Hodgdon's Benchmark in the 6mm T/CU Contender Handgun I tested it in also with 55gr. & 80gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips.

Larry

T/C Handguns, one good shot for your moment of truth !

Offline Lone Star

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Re: 223 accuracy, not good enough
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 04:30:33 AM »
Quote
I bought the barrel used in great appearing shape.  I have never gotten real aggressive with cleaning.  I have just used a bore snake and CLP like I do on the AR15.  Guess I will try a more aggressive brush and some Sweets.

That is the first thing I'd try as well.  I'd use some JB too, in moderation.   Not knowing the history of the barrel, it may have been sold because it didn't shoot well for the original owner. The mechanical causes for that have been covered above, and may or may not be worth pursuing. 

I'm not a big fan of a bipod for shooting small groups - expecially off a hard benchtop - but others have had decent luck.  My 10" .223 Contender shoots right around moa with 40-grain BTips and BlueDot and a 7X scope....on a calm day that is.   ::)


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