Author Topic: A little worried  (Read 888 times)

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Offline BlakeH

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A little worried
« on: February 10, 2007, 07:56:24 AM »
Ok i just shot my .243 ultra for the second time at my house. The first time it grouped well and i took it to a coyote contest and missed 3 out of 4 coyotes(not like me at all)the only one i hit was at 280 yards.  So this mouring was my first time to shoot it again, now originally i shot it in dead on at 200 yards so this mourning i moved the target to 100yards to see how high it was and it was like 6-7 inches high.  so i moved it down and got it how i wanted it.  Cleaned it really good with bore cleaner and rem oil took it out again to fire a fouling shot and now it is 3 inches low at a hundred.  Sorry for the lenghty message but i said all that to ask this my Back Porch is elevated about 10-15 feet higher than where i shoot from when i shot this mourning i shot from a spot below my porch where it is alot more level with the terrian when i shot it after cleaning i shot it from my back porch would this 10-15 foot change in elevation make this much difference? Oh and by the way first time shoting it was sub 1" at 200.



p.s. sorry for the crude drawing
Aim small miss small

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 08:25:18 AM »
BlakeH

All of my Handi's hate a clean bore , once i get them shooting were i want them the only cleaning i do is to run a patch down the barrel , i do this till they start to shoot wild . Then i give them a good cleaning , after that it takes about 3 or 4 rounds to foul the barrel again .

As far as being 3" low with a clean bore , your point of inpact will change from a dirty barrel to a clean one , put a few more rounds through it and see if the point of aim comes back to were it was before cleaning .

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline BlakeH

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2007, 08:29:03 AM »
ok thanks i will try but damn bullets are expensive i went through about 50 bucks worth today.  If any one wants some once fired 243 casings i can hook them up.
Aim small miss small

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2007, 08:35:09 AM »
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2007, 08:36:21 AM »
BlakeH

Sounds like you need to start hand loading , It will not save you any money but you will be able to shoot a lot more . also check your scope to see if it has come loose .

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2007, 08:40:33 AM »
Here is something else that you may want to look at .

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/accuhandi.html

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline BlakeH

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2007, 08:46:14 AM »
Well it took six shots to foul the barrel but it is back now i fired my last 3 after that and they were tight about 2 inches high a 100 perfect.  This is my first Handi and i have never experenced that much of a difference with any of my other rifles, but thanks for the help.  Next time when i get it where i want it i will leave it alone till it starts shooting wild.  I want to get into realoading as much as i shoot it think it would be fun.  Where do i need to start?
Aim small miss small

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2007, 08:51:03 AM »
BlakeH

Here is a good place to start .

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,99824.0.html

And check with your local gun shop , they may be able to hook you up with someone in your area that loads to teach you the ropes .

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline BlakeH

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2007, 08:52:49 AM »
Thanks for all the help guys
Happy Shooting
Blake
Aim small miss small

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2007, 09:45:01 AM »
Here's a great read on what a new handloader needs and what's optional...

Tim

http://home.earthlink.net/~dannewberry/dannewberrysoptimalchargeweightloaddevelopment/id7.html

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2007, 09:59:16 AM »


Quote
Sorry for the lenghty message but i said all that to ask this my Back Porch is elevated about 10-15 feet higher than where i shoot from when i shot this mourning i shot from a spot below my porch where it is alot more level with the terrian

Yes...this can have a little to do with it if this is where you initially sited in from...then shot on level ground...Always site in from level...unless you stand is elevated at this height and your shooting that distance...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline nomosendero

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2007, 12:39:17 PM »
Elevation matters, but not the amount you mention. Yes, I took Trig., but that was about 38 years ago!  ;D  That is why it is easier for someone like me to install a Cosine Indicator on the rifle, but not for the very slight angle you mention. If 10-15 feet mattered, then if you hunt out West or even in the Ozarks where I hunt, you could just forget about shooting at any distance at all, but not so.

Visualize a line from the porch to the target & a line from the ground to the target. Now visualize letting the line at the porch fall down to the ground level. If you add the entire elevation distance to the ground level of 10-15 feet you would now have a distance
of 203-205 yards. It would be hard to see a 5 yard diff. on target & before ANYONE MISUNDERSTANDS, that is NOT how to calculate this, I am only showing this in the EXTREME & that was not the problem.

Rather, Gravity pulls in a straight line from the shooter to the target at the same elevation, regardless of angle. So, if you are shooting a Deer that is 400 yards uphill from you & this is a 45 degree angle, you need to hold for a 300 yard or so shot & downhill with the same angle will give the same results. The gravity will still pull at a distance equaling the level distance (at Sea Level) from you to the target. To remove variables, like Mac said, I would sight in on level ground when possible.

So that leaves whether the barrel was clean or dirty, barrel temp. & how you were holding the gun when you shot.
1. Was the barrel hot when you sighted it in, did you shoot it alot in the process of sighting it in? If so, you final group could be somewhat diff than a cool of slightlyu warm barrel.
2. Did you rest the forearm in the same place & with the same pressure durring sighting in & shooting at the Coyotes?
3. I would check the effects of fouled vs clean barrel as Stimpy Lu suggested. To me I would have a serious problem with a barrel
that has to have just a certain number of shots going down the tube, but that is a personal thing, I guess.
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Offline McLernon

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2007, 01:41:59 PM »
If the height is such that the line of sight forms an angle with level ground less than about 6 degrees no correction for height is required. That is because from trigonometry the hypotenuse and the adjacent sides of the triangle formed is the same to three decimal places. :)

Mc

Offline nomosendero

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2007, 01:46:15 PM »
Yep, like I said, Trig was a long time ago. Did not remember the 6 degree part, but it doesn't matter. Even with ten degrees, it would not matter until WAY out there.
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Offline bigjeepman

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2007, 02:27:23 PM »
Here is a ballistic table that I use (there are many available on the internet) after I have found my Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) or "best load." If you leave the muzzle elevation at 0, this means you are shooting perfectly horizontal at your target. If you put another number in for Muz Elv ... say 20 ... this means you are aiming at a target either 20 degrees above or 20 degrees below horizontal ... and the table will calculate "point of impact" in relation to aiming point. I have found this table very useful as I carry the info with me on a hunt for a particular load zeroed in at 100 yards. I hunt in areas at times with steep hills and it comes in handy to know exactly where your bullet is going to hit at a certain distance. I zero at 100 yards because shots over 200 yards are rare where I hunt. Earlier replies that POI doesn't change much at low degree angles over short distances is certainly a fact but the ballistics are interesting over longer distances.

ballistic table ... 
http://www.handloads.com/calc/

OCW ...
http://www.clik.to/optimalchargeweight

Actually ... I am sure stimpylu32 had the answer for you about cleaning your rifle ... this is just some more food for thought ...
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free your heart from hatred ... free your mind from worries ... live simply ... give more ... expect less

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2007, 04:11:18 PM »


I ran this thru a nifty little on-line ballistic calculator..www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx

...and came up with a 5.784 MOA difference when using 15' altitude...then changing to a 0' altitude...

Atmosphere Wind  Zero Elevation
Temperature=59  Pressure=29.93  Direction=0 
Humidity=0 Altitude=0  Velocity=3000  Range to Target=100
Standard conditions at altitude     
Incline Line of Sight Angle=15'                 5.784 moa
Angle  Positive values indicate up, negative values down.



I made this mistake early on in my life...sighting in for my ground blind over looking a ravine...it was just about this high up...I too missed a broad side shot...not at a yote...but a dandy 8pt deer when I got down and tried to shoot later in the day from level ground...My Dad got a good laugh at my mistake....Try it and see...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline bigjeepman

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2007, 04:54:07 PM »
Mac ...

I missed a shot on a coyote last year that I just shouldn't have missed with a .243 rifle/load setup that I am very used to. I shot right over the back (I think I split hairs) of a coyote that I was watching trying to wind me and my brother. He was staying in the pines on the other side of a valley less than 200 yards away. There were two others with him but this one stood out. He finally came out of the trees long enough for me to line up my shot on my shooting sticks ... but I missed. I had never set up in a stand on such a steep incline before but my view was much better of the area. I do not know for sure what the downhill angle was but it was probably in the neighborhood of 35 to 40 degrees. I guess that is the reason I got to know my ballistics a little better since then. I still have a lot to learn ... but I know what my shot will do a lot better now on angled shots.

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free your heart from hatred ... free your mind from worries ... live simply ... give more ... expect less

Offline nomosendero

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Re: A little worried
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2007, 05:03:02 PM »
Mac, that is good info. My info was based on sighting in on level ground & describing how these angles would matter little with that in mind. Thanks for pointing out how it would make a difference if you sight in at an elevation as you rifle is at an angle. Never considered sighting in from an elevation to begin with, so I have not had the problem. Again, good info & may be his problem.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.