Thoughts and Ramblings on the Toby Bridges Post and Traditional Versus Inline.

[jh45gun]

OK first of all 1187VX2 Yes DNR's do listen to lobby groups and that could affect muzzle loading seasons as we know it. Here is a case in point though it has nothing to do with muzzle loaders but crossbows vs bows. A couple of years ago the WI DNR had a advisory question to find out how the public would respond to crossbow use for every one in WI. We have a spring hearing every year put on by the DNR one of the few states I think that does that if not the only one? Crossbows are allowed in WI for handicapped and over 65. The DNR I am sure would like to extend that to every one. Well the WI Bow Hunters Assoc. Stacked the meeting places all over the state to shut down that proposal. I know I was there at our local one and heard the results of the state wide totals. I really feel that if not for them crossbows would be legal for every one in WI now. The DNR wants it but they yeilded to the pressure of the bow hunters who feel threatened though I do not know why they should about crossbows. That could happen to muzzle loaders too or any other weapon if the right people push against it.

 Manofthe45, I own a NEF Huntsman inline and a Traditional cap lock. I also own a underhammer that is more a cross between modern and traditional due to parts used same with a 32 I have that is built on a falling block frame. If I need to see well to hunt I will scope it and my underhammer now has a red dot on it and my caplock has a peep sight on it though it is home made and primitive looking.  I see nothing wrong with scopeing a traditional gun if you need to. I rather would see some one with a scope on it and shoot well then cripple an animal because they cannot see open sights well enough to shoot well, wether that be PC or not. in the same respect those that use open sights and can shoot well that is great I wish I still could. I found when I bought my Huntsman that using the front sight and a peep works ok for me but using the back sight that was fiber optic still was fuzzy even the green dots that made out the fiber optic part. So for me Peeps or glass is the only option no matter what I shoot.

About your going back in time and giving them a improved model well here are my thoughts on that. Yea many would have taken the improved model. We can see in history that our forfathers did just that. Even back then Scopes were used by some as soon as they became available though they were fragile and not as clear as we have today still to some it was an improvement over open sights.  WHAT MANY FOLKS FORGET IS: There also were a lot of people who kept on useing what they were using (flintlocks and caplocks) and kept muzzle loading alive. They did this way into the 1900's then of course as we know it muzzle loading became popular again. There were some though that never gave up on these weapons and kept it alive. After the invention of the percussion cap still many used flintlocks as they did not have to worry about finding a supply of caps and they could make their own flints if they had too. That progression still happend with caplocks and flintlocks still being used after cartridge guns came into being.  Many trusted their old guns and kept on using them even passing them down in generations and still being used. Some being "freshed" out several times. Thanks to these folks muzzle loading stayed alive in parts of the country in some places I would say even flourished.

That said even today in some of the wild parts of the world Natives still use muzzle loading guns most of them smoothbores though some rifles are used too. They use them as they can make their own crude black powder  if need be and make a gun out of a pipe if they have to. I have seen examples of a "Native" Inline where a home made nipple was forged on the end of a barrel and a crude hammer/  spring arrangement was made to shoot the gun. for these folks muzzle loaders no matter how crude keeps them hunting and protecting them selves. I would suppose they use any ignition system they can come up with. The thing is while other guns I am sure are available to them the muzzle loader for them makes more sense as theyt can keep them shooting with out having to worry about ammunition with using even rocks for ammo in their smoothbores if they have to.  Not that this has much to do with the current arguements, but I do find it interesting.

As far as making your own balls or projectiles or wearing skins I see nothing wrong with that if your into it works for me I wish I had a good buckskin jacket or shirt.  I make my own balls and bulets and conicals for one reason and traditional has nothing to do with it as I do it because I can shoot cheaper and I enjoy it as it is a hobby in its self. If I had a lot of buckskin handy I would cut out and make my own jacket or shirt just to say I did it. I would get more satisfaction out of that then buying it.  I have made a ball shooter out of parts from TOTW instead of buying a kit so I could get what I wanted. (A left handed cap lock this was before some where offering them)  I also made my two underhammers a rifle and a shotgun since I got the barrels cheap and wanted to find a way to use them within my budget which was pretty limited. While my underhammers do not look completely traditional as they are in a full stock and the lockwork had to be fitted below the stock line I still took great satisfaction in making these work and getting a workable rifle and shotun for about 50 dollars each.

Ending this post I have to say those that like traditional I am with you  I like the concept and dedication of those that pursue this, for some a life style and for others  a way of hunting. but I also think those that use inlines should be able to also if that is their choice and yea that includes glass if you need it on either version of muzzle loader you shoot. Humane Kills is more to me then being PC. This has been said before and I am sure it will be again but as shooters and hunters we need to stick together and not be split apart over what we choose to use. That would include the battles between us muzzle loaders or the crossbow, bow debate, Sporter versus the so called "assault rifles" Handguns vs long guns ect ect. If we want to keep our sports alive we need to join ranks instead of fighting as the anti gun liberal groups are united and love to see us fight amoungst our selves. Off the soap box.  Jim

[Slamfire]

In California they just regulated against scopes during muzzleloader season, on the grounds that it is not in keeping with the primitive weapons tradition. Folks are welcome to use whatever they like durin' the normal deer season. That's the crux of the matter, PRIMITIVE!
Now I've never been handicapped in any way by some hunter shootin' a scoped inline, shootin' smokeless powder, and I've not lobbied against their use. However, given this assault on traditional rifles by Mr. Bridges, I have felt compelled to write to his sponsors, expressing my disappointment with his actions. Several of them have seen fit to discontinue their association with him and his organization. 

[jh45gun]

In California they just regulated against scopes during muzzleloader season, on the grounds that it is not in keeping with the primitive weapons tradition. Folks are welcome to use whatever they like durin' the normal deer season. That's the crux of the matter, PRIMITIVE!
Now I've never been handicapped in any way by some hunter shootin' a scoped inline, shootin' smokeless powder, and I've not lobbied against their use. However, given this assault on traditional rifles by Mr. Bridges, I have felt compelled to write to his sponsors, expressing my disappointment with his actions. Several of them have seen fit to discontinue their association with him and his organization. 

I have nothing against the primitive concept  I feel comfortable with my caplock and the peep sight on it which of course is an iron sight. Where I live we can use scopes of one x or a red dot. I suppose they limit the scopes to 1x because the early scopes were not that powerfull. That is a guess on my part I do not know why they limited it to 1x.  The only problem I have with that is finding a 1x and the cost of them. If some one made a repo old time scope that did not cost an arm and a leg  I would be all for it. As it is they are too darn pricey for me to afford. Even the Modern looking 1x scopes cost more than I want to spend on a scope for a muzzle loader. I do not need  high power  for a scope either as I believe in under a 100 yard shots with a muzzle loader I am not of the 200 yard plus crew. Still if I found a 2 x cheap it would be nice to be able to use it. As our law states now I cannot unless I use it during the rifle season.
As far as smokeless powder goes ya have to draw the line somewhere and that definately does not make it primitive anymore. We all have heard of when Remington tryed the electronic ignition which pretty much flopped and we have heard of them trying to make caseless ammo. Well they pretty much have done that with the Savage muzzle loader as using modern components all that is missing is the case. 

[propredator]

 Its too bad traditonal and inline hunters could not come togeather like bow hunters have.They went through the years of bickering also,but they now coissit in the same group with a lot of clot.Think what all of us could do if we would just quit the bickering and fighting and come togeather as one group.I fear it will never happen but i still hold hope.When the grumpy old men pass on to the happy hunting ground someday and the new generation of hunters are left perhaps this fued will be over for good.just hope im around to see it.

[KW]

I think it is those same "grumpy old men" that can teach this younger generation of hunters with the electronic gizmos and want it now attitudes alot. We need to stay connected to the past, and those whipper snappers of yester year are our best resource. And I am sure the muzzleloading community well get along as soon as the modern in-line is looked at in the muzzleloading world with the same love, respect and exceptance as the crossbow gets from the bowhunting world.

[crow_feather]

Everybody points to the bowhunters and says "look at them" see how they get along.  Well, the difference between a 35 pound recurve and a 70 pound compound is 20-25 yards.  The difference between a traditional and an inline rifle is 200 yards.  If you can get inline shooters to drop that range to a 20 yard difference, maybe things would be more peacefull.

But that is not the point. At least it is not the issue that I disagree with.  It is more the mentality of those that shoot inlines that I so dislike.

Special hunts were designated for traditional black powder rifle shooters so they could hunt with their old style rifles and have some chance of getting an animal.  States allowed traditional hunters into areas closed to rifle hunters and allowed them to hunt during  times of year closed to other hunters.  They allowed doe hunts when buck hunts were all that was offered to rifle hunters.

The first two years were great.  I remember being on a hillside one morning and hearing a shot. I looked down into the valley and saw the smoke rising through the trees, hearing the hunter whoop for joy, and thinking in the chilly morning breeze that things just couldn't get any better.

But there were those that saw the results and wanted in on the hunt. Only they didn't want to enjoy the thrill of hunting as their ancesters did.  They just wanted the "easy deer". They signed up for the special hunts, got drawn, then found out that it wasn't as easy as it looked.  They shot their traditional rifles off their shoulders like a 30-06 and discovered pain.  So someone put a rifle in a 30-06 stock so he could shoot the rifle off his shoulder and not feel pain.  They found out it wasn't easy to get within 100 yards of a deer and that when they did, it wasn't easy to hit the deer with traditional sights.  So they improved the sights and increased the range.  They didn't like having to clean their rifles so they made rifles easier to clean.  The end result was that people didn't change to use the traditional rifle, they just changed the rifle.

Now this shouldn't bother traditional hunters, most people say.  After all, they can still hunt in those seasons with the inline hunters. The problem is that because the hunts were made easier by the use of inline rifles, traditional hunters have to compete with thousands of people that apply for the hunt that don't even own a muzzle loading rifle.  If they get drawn, they go to Walmart and plunk down their 99 dollars for a Traditions 45.

If traditional hunts were limited to just traditional rifles, I believe that there would be thousands of in line rifles rusting in closets.  Those that sell in line rifles believe this also.  In order to prevent this from happening, they will attempt to outlaw traditional rifles.  No traditional rifles, no people demanding that the hunts be returned to traditional only.

That's why Toby Bridges gets big money to put that crap (sorry GB) in print.

C F

[Graybeard]

I'm one who doesn't believe in "special" seasons for various and sundry different means of hunting. This is just my opinion but it's a strongly held one.

If you want to hunt with bow fine, then do so. If you want to hunt with a muzzle loader again fine do so. But this special season crap for each is all wrong in MY opinion. Just hunt with what you wanna. Yeah sure you have to "compete" with the rest of us so what, we have to "compete" with you. Actually I don't see it as competing at all personally. I'm competing with no one but myself and the game.

For years I was able to handgun hunt for squirrels here in Bama but not deer cuz it wasn't legal to use handguns in the WMAs where I hunted and I had no private land access. I did finally get some private land access and started and then later the WMAs opened to handguns. I never felt any need for a special season for doing that, I just took my iron sighted revolvers out and hunted during rifle season and did fine. For darn sure my range was no more than that of a traditional muzzle loader and most all were shot within the range of a good shot with bow.

But my personal feelings aside "special" seasons were established. Until very recently here in Bama they were really only in the WMAs where you could use a "muzzle loader or other primitive weapon to take does when otherwise bucks was all that were legal. Not much of a season if you ask me. At that time it was called a "primitive weapons" hunt and that meant any muzzle loader or bow but no scopes on the guns.

I bought a TC Renegade and hunted some in the WMAs with it and took a few does that way. Back then there wasn't a lot of days of hunting in the local WMAs and even by traveling to all three within 100 miles of me there wasn't a lot of days of total hunting available.

Things have changed drastically over the years here. The deer herd grew so large that now about 2/3 of the state is open to either sex hunting the entire gun season and always has been with bows. Now in that 2/3 of the state you can take a buck a day all season and also a doe to go with him or two does even if you want and can. Most of the rest of the state has either 43 or 51 days of the same I think it is.

So now there is not a lot of reason to bother with the WMA primitive weapons hunts as does are readily huntable every where with whatever you wanna use.

We do now have a short "muzzle loader" season. I think it's maybe five days now up from three the first year or two. It's the few days immediately before opening of gun season on the Saturday before Thanksgiving. I'm not much into muzzle loaders so don't really bother but I think you still can't use a scope but can an inline. I still have a Renegade and should I hunt I'd use it with irons. I don't use black powder as that's about impossible to find locally but do use Pyrodex just as I have since the first day I got a muzzle loader. I use either Buffalo Bullets or Hornady Great Plains bullets only over that Pyrodex. That's the way I've always done it and if I hunt again it's the way I'll still do it.

So to the point of this rambling. If the season is called a "PW or primitive weapons" hunt I personally think it should be limited to some version of a PRIMITIVE weapon. That might be a bow or a muzzle loader. But it shouldn't to me at least be a compound IF it's PW and it shouldn't have a scope if it's a muzzle loader. It shouldn't use smokeless powder like the Savage and it shouldn't have a jacketed bullet in a sabot.

But if all it says is BOW season or muzzle loader season then if it's a muzzle loader or a bow it should be fine to use it. If the state wants to be more restrictive so be it, put it in the rules and then hold folks to those rules.

Yes the real primitive guys in both bow and muzzle loader fields got those seasons way back when and dang it they feel they should still be the ONLY ones hunting them. Me I think the seasons should be ended and let folks use what kinda hunting tool makes them happy. But until that happens I think the states need to define what's OK and what's not and then we all need to stop fighting amongst ourselves about it.

[Wolfhound]

Me I think the seasons should be ended and let folks use what kinda hunting tool makes them happy.

Same here. The "special" seasons are the source of the division in hunter ranks. One only needs to look at how bowhunters respond to crossbows and sidelock hunters respond to inlines to see that. Make one season and call it deer season and let everyone hunt with what they want. Equipment makers wouldn't like it but too bad. The archery companies alone would see a huge sales drop, not to mention the inline muzzleloading industry. I wonder how many folks would drop their bows and muzzleloaders for CF rifles. 

[Graybeard]

There are some diehard bow hunters who even now hunt only with bows. Those wouldn't change I'm sure. Same for many traditionalists with muzzle loaders. They'd just keep on doing what they do. But those who bought and/or buy bows or muzzle loaders only for the special seasons available would stop if the seasons stopped. Yup muzzle loader sales (inlines at least) would nearly end and the use of compound bows would be reduced significantly if special seasons ended.

Even Jim Shockey would go back to centerfire rifles as there wouldn't be enough inline sales for anyone to be able to justify paying him all that money to use their inline while hunting.

[quickdtoo]

Here in Washington, the game department changed many years ago to a pick your weapon where you must choose a specific weapon to hunt with for that particlular species in that defined season. If I choose to hunt on a modern firearm deer tag, I can hunt with any legal weapon, be it archery, muzzleloader or centerfire rifle or handgun during the modern firearm season, but if I choose a muzzleloader tag for deer, I can only hunt with a legal muzzleloader within the ML deer season, there's no switching or adding an additional season by switching weapons with the exception of a few very limited permit by drawing hunts. Same goes for elk, buy an archery elk tag, and I'm limited to hunting elk only during the archery elk seasons with legal archery equipment. We also have fairly strict ML firearms restrictions, no glass sights, no jacketed bullets, no enclosed ignitioin, no 209 primers, no smokeless powder. FWIW, 4 of the last 7yrs that I hunted, were with a flintlock shooting PRB during the modern firearm season, and I loved it cuz I got to hunt with the rest of my family who aren't all keen on ML hunting, I also made meat 3 of those years with the flinter, which makes it even better!!

Tim

[Woodbutcher]

 
 There has been a lot of input on this website and others about this Bridges guy. Did he make some very ominous threats about how he wanted to work for legislation against the use of Traditional equipment? Is he really representing his side of things, or is there another agenda behind all this?
 The idea of a governmental agency growing fatter, and making more bureaucratic decisions and more regulations is not good. Bureaucrats can deal with this matter to our disadvantage.
                                                                                 Woodbutcher
 
   
   

[crow_feather]

GB

Be glad you live in Bama, cause it just isn't the same in other states.  Maybe you could use some of our wolves and grizzly bears.

ps:  Watch out with the "crap" word.  There's this guy that moniters foul language and he does get a mite riled when you cross the line

C F

[Graybeard]

GB

Be glad you live in Bama, cause it just isn't the same in other states.  Maybe you could use some of our wolves and grizzly bears.

I think I'll pass on those. Don't think I want to live with either of them rat now.

ps:  Watch out with the "crap" word.  There's this guy that moniters foul language and he does get a mite riled when you cross the line

C F

I heard a rumor to that effect but so far he's not gotten on me about my language. Maybe I'll be able to skate by him. Heck I'll bet even you can get by with crap but there are some things ya can't. 

[crow_feather]

Did I tell ya that a man with humor in him is a nice person ta deal with.

[Graybeard]

  

[manofthe45]

God I wish we had more people that wanted a deer season pick your weapon here in Pa.  Would make matters much simpliar.  personally my goal every year in to get a deer with everthing.  when I get one with the bow the crossbow comes out. then I have inline season.  after I get one with the rifle the pistol comes out.  Get the idea.  (if not) I enjoy using every weapon choice at my disposal.  that will never change!  If you feel that weapon choice needs to be legislated down to the most finite degree Fine your opinion.  Me i'll take every choice I'm given and welcome all that want to hunt in that season. (which ever season it may be)

[jh45gun]

I agree with ya manofthe45. Be nice to use what ever you wanted but I think it will never fly. The  bow hunters would scream bloody murder. They think they own the woods expecially during the rut in WI and they would I am sure lobby it down. I would bet other places would be the same.  This year if you buy a rifle and archery license you can get  5 to 6  deer with out even buying an extra tag. Then Extra tags are available too for price. ( Cheap two and twelve dollars depending on the tag. ) I think too many folks would be against it figureing that would slaughter the herd if it is not set up in structured seasons. I used to bow hunt now crossbow hunt but I do not agree with most of the bow hunting associations they are a selfish lot.

[Slamfire]

 There has been a lot of input on this website and others about this Bridges guy. Did he make some very ominous threats about how he wanted to work for legislation against the use of Traditional equipment? Is he really representing his side of things, or is there another agenda behind all this?
 The idea of a governmental agency growing fatter, and making more bureaucratic decisions and more regulations is not good. Bureaucrats can deal with this matter to our disadvantage.
                                                                                 Woodbutcher
 
   
   

He as filed a discrimination complaint with the agency that supervises the Federal Handicapped law, stating that the prohibition of telescopes on muzzleloaders in some state, discriminates against older shooters with vision problems.
Furthermore, he has begun a campaign to outlaw the use of roundballs stating they don't kill cleanly.
He is, at this time a shill for Knight. 

[jh45gun]

I do not have an issue with the scope situation if you need one to make a clean kill. Not every one can see open sights well enough anymore to get the job done. Their is no absolute reason though to try to ban the round ball except for the fact it will put the screws to a lot of traditional hunters. For that reason Toby should be hung by the thing he is trying to ban. ( Hope that is not out of line GB)

[Biff Mayhem]

 

Furthermore, he has begun a campaign to outlaw the use of roundballs stating they don't kill cleanly.
He is, at this time a shill for Knight. 

Do you have a quote or link where he states that??... thanks in advance!

[Slamfire]

http://hpmuzzleloading.com/EditorsView.html

[jh45gun]

What Toby fails to mention is that I would bet most traditional muzzle loaders know the round ball looses energy  at longer distances so there for limit their ranges to 75 yards and closer. At them ranges the round ball is a excellent projectile. Even the 45 cal round ball which is not much compared to the 50 and 54 will kill a deer at close ranges that most hunt with these guns anyway.  I like my 54 ball shooter and would not feel undergunned at all at 75 yards or closer. I do not even like to take long shots with a centerfire and try to keep my shots 100 yards or closer. Even shooting my fast twist rifles I shoot lead conicals and keep my range short. In the woods areas I hunt that is not a problem. Very seldom does a long shot occur unless it is over a clear cut.

He is pretty ignorant saying the round ball was obsolete in the 1830s considering that some folks kept it alive right up to the Muzzle loader comeback started by TC and some other companies. Considering that was not that long ago those old boys did a good job keeping the traditional guns and roundballs alive.  Like I said I like shooting conicals my choice but I have a round ball gun too and I will be hunting with it also it will not just be sitting in the gun safe.

[Woodbutcher]

 Divide and conquer! We're all, as hunters and firearms owners, under attack! What is the agenda of the opposition, a new organization, with all the MONEY and power that goes with it, or is it a front for something more sinister?
 Such an attack plays right into the wishes of the anti-gun movement. Who is really being represented? It ain't gun owners, inline or otherwise! This is an effort by the anti-gun crowd. Stir up a lot of trouble, make a lot of money doing it, and distroy the American right to gun ownership. And use gun owner money to do it, with govt. help of course!
 Classic socialist type tactics, lies, distortion, threats, and all the while trying to make out like its some noble cause. And make money from your opposition while doing it!
 It's interesting that industry leades have distanced themselves. Gee, do they know more than they're saying?
 Best defense against this is to attack, call it what it is. Loudly!   Woodbutcher

[longcaribiner]

I started hunting with a flint, before PA had a special season.  In 1963, I met a deputy game warden who was hunting with a beautiful Pa flint long rifle.  I was hooked and had one by 1967.  I hunted in the regular firearms season.  When the after Christmas flint only season was passed I was tickeled pink.  After all bow hunters get two and a half months, and those "kooks" with flint locks now got 5 weeks.    The season is still flint only after Christmas.   But though the law requires that such guns be single shot, muzzleloading flintlock long guns of the pre 1800 style with open sights, the game commission lets any darn flintlock ignition in.  Technically all those TC Hawkins should not be legal under the statute.  Later the PGC allowed percussion locks into an early season.  Then Mr. White spent tens of thousands of dollars lobbying here and got the early season open to his product.  Now White's side kick, Toby Bridges,  is lobbying to outlaw the round ball and the very Pa flint lock long rifle that the season was meant to promote.  If Bridges had his way, our most traditional long guns will be illegal for deer.  He wants scopes, peep sights, and elephant charges to shoot the lowly white tail.  Next he'll claim percussion and centerfire ignitions should be replaced by electric muzzleloader ignition.  (Don't laugh, I fired one at a range near Annapolis MD in 1978. Used a spark plug screwed into the barrel )  He'll want heat seeking laser guided bullets, (for the sake of humane kills.)     After that he'll claim that handgun hunters using 357 and 44 mags are not capable of humane kills and should be outlawed, as well as rilfe hunters using 30-30's.   

There were all kinds of inventions in the firearms industry in the early 1800's.  including an in-line action.  So What?  The Ferguson breech loading flintlock was invented and issued to British troops in the 1770's.  That doesn't mean it should be legalized for a traditional hunting season.  The Puckle gun of the early 1700's was a flint lock precursor to the gattling gun, with all of about three specimens known.  That also doesn't mean it saw traditional use.     

I have flinters, percussion, side slappers, underhammers and yes, two inlines.   If the PA flinter season is to foster hunting with the traditional type of Pa long rifle  that was manufacturered here in the 1700's  and "stolen" by Kentucky, then in lines have no place, except in another season.   

I remember archery hunting before compounds, before trigger releases, before fancy tips and sights were legal in PA.  Since the training wheels have been permitted, I lost interest.  Too many folks think they are hunting in a primitive manner with a space age compound, with arrow rest, trigger release, and sights.  They are nothing more than futuristic vertical cross bows.    If the idea is to kill deer, then just legalize putting out bait with knock out drops in it.  Hunters can then take their deer with no weapon at all.  Check the bait pile every few hours during commercials interrupting the football games and they can call that hunting. 

It isn't so much the in-lines in a regular rifle season I mind.  I thoroughly resent having worked for a season when I can be nearly alone in the woods, The after Christmas flint season, and having it invaded by folks with centrfire rifles just because they stuff down the front.     I dare any in line fan, to show me any design, print, patent or model,/ drawing to prove there were centerfire primers used in any historical hunting context prior to the civil war.    (No,.... needle fire guns are not centerfire)