They should have never legalized cross bows

[Deerhunter#1]

I understand that the game commission looked at it as extra money income but did they realize or have they realized what is going on. I really wonder how many new hunters it actually brought in or if it it just transitioned bow hunters to cross bow hunters. My concern and one that I have had to many occassions to see and here about is the # of wounded deer being shot by crossbow hunters and not recovered. Its my experience that the majority of them BUT NOT ALL either were bow hunters who never practiced and were looking for an easy way out. They sight the crossbow in never practice and go out and wound deer and wonder why. Even put it away for the year grab it opening day the next year and say its like a rifle The scope is sighted in and its ready to go. I think it was a money maker but at the expence of our deer hurd and the loss of more respect from the non hunting community. To anyone using one that is doing there process of prctice this is not intended for you as there are many ethical cross bow hunters out there. I just wish the others would get on board with you.

[FPH]

I'm actually against all bow hunting.  I have seen too many dead Elk that have run off, looked for water, and died.  Some rather large bulls (400 pts +).  These folks are able to get access to the animals during or close to the rut, but they can't shoot.

[Empty Quiver]

So you haven't seen any of the wounded deer or you haven't been able to look?
 
Your DNR is charged with both herd management and finding ways to get more hunter days afield. An aging population of hunters means fewer able to draw a normal bow.
 
 Many hunters honestly do not have the time or space to practice with a normal archery set-up. Acknowledging that the DNR has made an effort to relieve pressure by allowing a tool that can be sighted in and with a minimum of hours be lethal in many peoples hands. Is it better that those who don't have the time go ahead and hunt with inadequate skills?
 
Those who wound a deer with a gun are somehow morally superior to one who does so with a crossbow. You are not trying to say that gun hunters somehow have better control of their weapon of choice than do crossbow hunters?
 
Maybe a European style hunter proficiency test would be what Pa. needs? I would say watch what you are wishing for. Your DNRmight be a little smarter than you give them credit. Painting crossbow hunters with such a broad brush is kind of uncalled for. There are slobs in every pursuit, from panfishing, to hunting exotics behind high fences with remote computer controlled guns.

[FPH]

Maybe a European style hunter proficiency test would be what Pa. needs?

I agree with that.  I have seen a few Muleys, but we are more of an Elk area.  I knew of one Eastern gentleman that could shoot lights out with his bow in camp.  However, just like many gun hunters, buck fever hit when he was put onto a big bull.  Too many idiots are taking up bow hunting for the time of the season they are allowed to hunt.  They only pick up a bow once a year.

[Empty Quiver]

Maybe a European style hunter proficiency test would be what Pa. needs?

I agree with that.  I have seen a few Muleys, but we are more of an Elk area.  I knew of one Eastern gentleman that could shoot lights out with his bow in camp.  However, just like many gun hunters, buck fever hit when he was put onto a big bull.  Too many idiots are taking up bow hunting for the time of the season they are allowed to hunt.  They only pick up a bow once a year.

Would it not make more sense for them to use a crossbow? (My point if I have one.    ) You might want to study up on the European system a bit. Though it does turn out proficient hunters with very high ethics it produces damn few of them and they are by necessity quite wealthy too.

[FPH]

I understand the European system is quite restrictive.  I think all hunters (bow and gun) need to pass a proficiency exam.  I'm not in  favor of wealth being a factor needed to qualify.  However, something needs to be done.

[mcbammer]

The  crossbow legalization  has  allowed  handicap  hunters  to  join  in  the  hunt.  Im  all  for  it. there  maybe  a  wounded  deer  here and  there  that is  lost, but  compared  to  the  roadkill  I see daily it  wouldnt  even  compare  numerically.

[FPH]

I would be considered a "handicap" hunter.  I don't need a bow.  Rifle is just fine....if you or someone can't track down your wounded deer, the you shouldn't be out there.

[PowPow]

If herd management is a main concern, why don't they add a few more days to gun season?

[hornady]

Simple fact as with all things legislating it is not the answer, I have over fifty years of hunting seen slob shooters. I will not call them hunters, I have seen Deer dead and rotting as well as crippled by both rifles and bows.
If legislating a sport or activity were the answer, then why do we still read of stupid hunting accidents every year, we now have hunter safety requirements.
Look at the new poaching laws, you would think the fines alone would have ended this non-sense, 
Look at drunk driving, you must take a test to operate a motor vehical, there has been an extensive anti DUI campaign on for years, and very stiff fines, yet the problem continues.
There has been and always will be the 1% that make the remaining 99% look bad. I always say be very careful what you wish for, The Government quick fix too a problem comes at a very high cost.

[Deerhunter#1]

well let me reiterate that no all CROSSBOW hunters are bad. The problem is the ones that pick them up as an easy way out from becoming a good shot with a bow  and transfer there poor ethics of practic and responsability to hunting with the weapon. As far as no archery at all if correct archery was around way before any firearm and will never go anywhere nor should it(My opinion). Empty Guiver you stated that many dont have the time or space to practice with regular bow so they made something that can be easily used without practice or should they use bows that they cant soot well. That is the problem. If you cant shoot. Dont have the time to shoot and are not confident that you can make a shot when needed then you should not be hunting archery season anyway. Giving these people a weapon that is suppose to be easier to use still demands practice and fine tunning. I know that if I am hunting with bow,gun, bb gun, sling shot or any other weapon if i feel I cant consistantly make the shot I am not going. Threse animals deserve more respect than that. Maybee me saying that crossbows shood have not been allowed is a mistake. Maybee some changes to the sport and time afield shood be changed. For instance there are from what the game commission says a rise in people afield because off cross bow. That being during first archery. Between archery and crossbow and early muzzeloader both harvested and wounded and not found deer by the time rifle season is upon us the deer herd is down. There has been a great drop in deer in many counties and less hunters going out rifle season. The areas who depend on hunters coming to town rifle season are definitely seeing less hunters every year and less deer are being shot by the hunters who are there. I here many say i am not coming next year i didnt see anything. When this cross bow boom is gone the damage will already have been done and many will not come back. Then what?   

[Empty Quiver]

Then what? Well hopefully the ones who are serious will be left to clean up the reputation of the sport.
 
 I can understand that a bunch of people will jump in assumeing a trigger means a gun. I have very little experience and it was a loonngg time ago >30 years. What I experienced taught me that a crossbow was a poor substitute for a nice Allen compound. I couldn't hit with it and it had poor penetration to boot, it was awkward to load and of coarse illegal as hell to use on game (which by the way could probably be a good description of that early compound  ).
 
Give it some time and the rotten apples will most likely weed themselves out. Even a crossbow is a low percentage hunt and the fast and easy crowd will soon tire themselves out.

[45-70.gov]

concerned crossbow hunters  should run an ad on craigs list or news paper


gather other cross bow  hunters together....to  practice   and exchange  ideas


AND   STOP ANY GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE

[Casull]

This is the very same argument that was being made 40 years ago about compound bows.  The compound bow was so much easier to shoot and hit with than traditional (real) archery tackle that traditional bow hunters were worried that it would bring out all the slobs with their compound devices and ruin the sport, and result in much more wounding of deer.  The argument then was just as valid (or invalid) as it is today.  I laugh at the guy shooting a 70% to 85% letoff compound with a ball bearing trigger release, peep sight, multi pin bow sight, bow stabilizer, carbon arrows and mechanical broadheads claiming that the crossbow hunters are not "real" archers or are going to ruin "archery".

[joeinwv]

The tackle used does not matter. You either take ethical, clean shots - or you don't.

Archery, muzzleloader, rifle, shotgun - whatever. A bad hunter is a bad hunter.

If WV made crossbows legal for other than handicapped, I would probably get one and use it sometimes.

[Defoe]

The  crossbow legalization  has  allowed  handicap  hunters  to  join  in  the  hunt.  Im  all  for  it. there  maybe  a  wounded  deer  here and  there  that is  lost, but  compared  to  the  roadkill  I see daily it  wouldnt  even  compare  numerically.

when I got so that I couldn't pull my recurve, I got a crossbow.  easy to cock with a crank mechanism.
I haven't seen any studies on crossbow vs compound, but an arrow thru the gizzard is the same from any stick slinger.
I agree with your post totally.

[muznut 54]

My buddies adult son has a high dollar crossbow with a scope and he cant hit any better than me with my compound bow. Heck I'm blind in one eye and don't see that great out off the other.   In Maine crossbows were outlawed for hunting deer until just a few years ago and now you can only use them during rifle season. Lets see my BLR 358win or crossbow? Screw the crossbow!

[FPH]

As far as no archery at all if correct archery was around way before any firearm and will never go anywhere nor should it(My opinion).

And we have evolved and now have more humane efficient ways of taking game (see rifle).  Sure there are some bad rifle hunters.......but you always have bad hunters of one type or another.

[Defoe]

As far as no archery at all if correct archery was around way before any firearm and will never go anywhere nor should it(My opinion).

And we have evolved and now have more humane efficient ways of taking game (see rifle).  Sure there are some bad rifle hunters.......but you always have bad hunters of one type or another.

to stop the wounding of game animals, you would have to outlaw hunting.
I welcome any LEGAL way to hunt, because most hunters vote.

[manofthe45]

I am going to try and stay as hands off as possible, but will be watching this closly.  Like sunday hunting, semi rifles for small game, AR/HR, inlines in the late flintlock season and a couple other subjects the crossbow debates tends to get out of hand in a heartbeat.  Please keep it to opinions on the weapon or god forbid actual facts.  So neather side can claim favortism my opinions will stay locked in my head.


Play nice or this topic will disappear quick, fast and in a

hurry.

[Cemo]

Great Subject! First of all, I'm not against bow or cross bow hunting. But I don't like the odds of some hunters humanely taking a deer with them. Yeah, on TV shows, they typically drop on the spot or run 50 ft., stager and fall over. In real life I know hunters who practice a lot to sharpen their skills and can make a 50 yard shot with ease. Kids from the 4H taking a deer their first time out. Also, in real life, I hear some people coming in to work and saying "I stuck one last night, but couldn't find it". A day or two or weekend later "I drew blood, but must have just nicked the skin, couldn't find it". Next "I got a double lung pass through on a huge 10 pointer, but it ran off and I couldn't find it". Over time I realize that some of these hunters are sticking 3, 4, or 5+  deer just to harvest 1. But it's not just in archery that we have these issues, we get them during firearms seasons too. It's just the way it is. Not much you can do about it. Just work with the kids, that's where you most opportunity for major impact.
 

[Empty Quiver]

Great Subject! First of all, I'm not against bow or cross bow hunting. But I don't like the odds of some hunters humanely taking a deer with them. Yeah, on TV shows, they typically drop on the spot or run 50 ft., stager and fall over. In real life I know hunters who practice a lot to sharpen their skills and can make a 50 yard shot with ease. Kids from the 4H taking a deer their first time out. Also, in real life, I hear some people coming in to work and saying "I stuck one last night, but couldn't find it". A day or two or weekend later "I drew blood, but must have just nicked the skin, couldn't find it". Next "I got a double lung pass through on a huge 10 pointer, but it ran off and I couldn't find it". Over time I realize that some of these hunters are sticking 3, 4, or 5+  deer just to harvest 1. But it's not just in archery that we have these issues, we get them during firearms seasons too. It's just the way it is. Not much you can do about it. Just work with the kids, that's where you most opportunity for major impact.

Is there a chance they are full of crap?
 
I am no superman with a bow and can say that over the past 35 years I can think of only 3 wounded deer I did not collect, one I saw the next month and again the next season (very unique rack). Maybe they think saying they "stuck one" sounds better to their ears than I missed, or I can't get a deer within bow range.
 
I have found that archery equipment to be danged deadly, the only time I have had problems it involved a straight through the guts shot. In those 35 years I shot several deer who died from marginal, not by any means textbook hits. Even at that admission those deer rarely traveled over 250yds. They left an adequite blood trail, quarter to dime drops every few yards that I was able to see without any snow.
 
But as many times said slobs are everywhere, they usually won't last long, and the ethical hunters will continue on. Don't sweat the tool, its the operator that needs the attention.

[knight0334]

Over the years I've seen just about as many gun shot, bow, and crossbow injured or lost deer.  I really think it makes no difference on what tool you use - the biggest contributor is the hunter him or her self.

I know a guy who's taken deer cleaning with a crossbow every year from even before they were blanketly allowed.   He was allowed under one of the prior disability rules when crossbows were generally prohibited. 

If you look at the ballistics of bolts and arrows launched from crossbows and bows - the energies often exceed what many hunting guns can make.  Where some stick-shooter hunters go wrong at is using their favored tool within appropriate ranges.  ..which is also a failure with gun hunters when they attempt to kill a critter that isn't within their cartridges' suited ranges.

[SHOOTALL]

I don't think compareing gun to arrow is a good idea. Bullets kill different than arrows. The arrow kills most of the time by hemorage where the bullet destories muscle , bone and organs by shock and destruction. The bow hunter must be a good tracker as should be the gun hunter. I would guess the fair weather gun hunter might abandon the trail of a wounded deer quicker than most bow hunters. From What I see alot of new hunters don't know what the reaction a deer makes when shot to even know if it was a good shot. Here again a gun hunter being farther away might think a miss when it was not. I don't bow hunt anymore , tried a cross bow but didn't like it . I hunt with a muzzle loade , revolver and rifle . Nothing can make up for no pratice . I have killed several deer with broadheads in them over the years and one bullet and a couple with buck shot. I would rather find buck shot it tends not to cut the skinner as bad  .
Another factor in how people behave is how deer are viewed . In many places in the South they rank with nusiance critters. They can eat crops by the acre in a night. Tags are given to shoot them to get rid of them. I think in these areas hunters sometimes take shots knowing if they get it fine if not they helped the farmer anyway. I have heard of farmers shooting them in the stomach so they will run off and die and not clutter up the field . Cruel yes but dragging deer out of planted fields is destructive to money crops. They see it as no difference than poisining rats eating feed.

[Casull]

If you look at the ballistics of bolts and arrows launched from crossbows and bows - the energies often exceed what many hunting guns can make.

 
 
 
You might want to check that one.  The highest energies from bolts and arrows do not even equal the energy of a .22lr.

[Bingo]

  Casull, you beat me to the punch. People screemed bloody murder when the compound was made legal. And again when the mechanical release got the nod. If you want to cry about the crossbow, you better be shooting a stick bow and wooden arrows with slate tips. Now that is archery hunting.
   Better still, hunt with an atlittel. They made them legal a few years back. It is basicly a stick that throws a speer. Now that is hunting.
  I understand your argument against crossbows. I use one because I have to. Two sholder surgeries and I can not draw a bow anymore. I also hunt with a 16 year old kid that is going blind and needs a scope to aim through. For us, the crossbow is the only way we can hunt archery.
   Leave it alone. There are enough people out there who want to ban hunting and regulate us into the ground. If it gets more people hunting then I say good for you.
     If you try to leguslate ethics and morals, you'll end up with more Democrates and less hunters and look what that has gotten us!

[1holeaddict]

I must agree on the amount of wounded animals now with the crossbows. I have one guy at work who wounded 3 large buck already this year alone. I am not against bow hunting or crossbow hunting but i am against the fools who try to harvest an animal at a distance or an angle that is over  extending their personal limits. One big issue i have is many pa slobs shoot a buck during archery season and still want to rifle hunt so the buck is either tagged with a wives tag or taken out a dark with no tag. If the state wants more hunters than they should open up the game lands access roads to vehicles or quads so hunters can get to remote places. Also they should start Rifle season on a Saturday and allow Sunday hunting. Im tired of hearing about the farmers complaining about watching their land on Sundays they dont let us hunt anyways.

[manofthe45]

I despise the idea of opening all access roads.  Some of us hike in far to get away from 95% of the orange sea.  You want to hunt that remote spot then get up and walk in.

[Flash]

Im wondering what the argument was like when hunters chose breach loaders over muzzle loaders. They'll be shooting deer at unreasonable distances instead of a good shot placed up close? Im one who is in favor of the cross bow legalization because yes, it gives more hunters the opportunity to archery hunt who might not be able to draw back a compound bow. I suffered a childhood shoulder injury which kept me from ever being proficient with a long or compound bow but am now enjoying archery hunting. I've come across several deer carcass in my years and never one with an arrow so the rifle plays a bigger part in poor shots in my eyes.

[T.R.]

I've been hunting with a crossbow for over 10 years due to an unhealed elbow fracture.  Used to be I needed a Dr. letter and special form filled out to apply for the disability waiver.  Then everything changed a couple years back.  But I'm NOT convinced that crossbow shooters are responcible for most of the wounded and lost deer.  This has been an ongoing archery problem for several decades.
 
TR