Author Topic: Not happy with H&R!!!! Ultra Varmint flutted .223 (Read 2364 times)

223dog · « **on:** January 09, 2009, 08:43:52 AM »

I am starting to think that I should have not bought this rifle. I have had it for about a year and it is not as much fun as I thought it would be. When I first bought It I could shoot 2 inch groups with it. I was told that It would get better with more rounds through the barrel and that they like the 55-70 grain bullets. I shot more bullets through the gun and cleaned it often thinking that It would get better with time. I have tried different bullets. I have tightened up all the mounts and screws. It has not become any better than the first day I shot it!!!!
Today I thought that I would try some reloads that I just made.(I am Just getting started Reloading) First three shots were all high and left; they were about a 2 inch group. I thought that It was my reloads that changed the point of impact; so I tried two types of factory ammo; and Both High and left so i adjusted my scope. I shot a few more shots and It is still about at best a 2 inch group. I am getting a little upset and then try see if i can shoot some clay pidgeons laying a round the range off of the shooting sticks. I was missing the clay pigeons out around 100 yards so I moved to the one closer and was still missing them!!! So I go and set up a target at 50 yards and I am hitting low and to the right off of shooting sticks. Then I start to think that i over adjusted the scope because I am Low. I adjust the scope again. Take a few more shots; trying to hit the clays out at 100 yards still missing them. I thought that the barrel might be dirty so i stop for the day Upset.
I know that a lot would have to do with the shooting stick; but they are what I use to hunt and I can sight in my other rifles just fine with them. I also tried a few shots over sand bags and that Is when the point of impact would change. Now I don't know If my rifle is sighted in for the bags or the sticks!! By the Time I left I was just thinking to my self I should have bought the savage!! I could try the spacer In the forearm trick. I will clean the barrel before go out. Any other suggestion???

mangulator · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2009, 09:00:38 AM »

What type of scope are using? Have you checked the scope they can go bad. What bullet wieght, powder combination,are you using? are you full length sizing the brass?

223dog · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2009, 09:10:55 AM »

Yes I am full length sizing the brass, The load Is 21.5 grain H322, 60 grain hornady spire points. The factory ammo preformed the same; 55 grain bullets and 68 grain bullets.
if You have a better load Let me know I am just getting started reloading.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2009, 10:11:59 AM »

Read and follow the Handi Basics 101 before you do any more load testing, get those covered first.

Tim

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2009, 11:15:00 AM »

Take this load and shoot it off the bench sitting on the frame without the forearm attached as explained in the FAQ's. Get set up at one distance be it 50 75 or 100 yrds. Shoot at paper I usually just start at 50. Start w/clean bbl shoot a few shots to foul bbl and make sure your on the paper. Then pick a spot fire 3 see where they hit if ya got a small group pick a different spot and do the same thing if ya get the same group adjust your scope fire 3more . Don't start moving around shootin clay pigieons till ya get it dialed in. If all seems good your problem is in the forearm pressure .Being a bull bbl you are more likely to have issues with the bbl channel and that's covered in the FAQ's. Try this load and if it don't shoot I'll let someone else have a crack at it.

55gr Vmax bullet 23gr IMR 3031 powder I use Lake City brass Win Sm Rifle primers oal of 2.262 full length sized no crimp shoots right @3000
it shoots under 1" out of mine . Kurt

SM Bob · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2009, 04:33:22 PM »

The right scope can make a difference. I had a cheap Trashco 6-24X42mm on my 223
bull barrel Handi with some cheap rings that didn't hold well at all. I was getting frustrated
just like you are because my point of impact was anything but consistent. I junked the
old optics and picked up a Mueller APV scope and some Burris Sig Zee rings. It made a huge
difference! I didn't have to chase the p.o.i. anymore. Also follow the FAQ's on the
forearm setup. It is a huge key to making the Handi shoot well. Make sure when you are
shooting from the bench to rest on the hinge, not the forearm. Try shooting your Handi
without the forearm on resting on the hinge to see if it makes a difference. If it does make
a difference, and chances are it probably will, you will need to do a little forearm work. The
good news is it you can do it yourself easily and it is all covered in the FAQ's.
Everyone's rifle will probably like different loads. I tried heavy and light bullets and found
mine liked the Sierra 55 gr Spitzer over 25.5 grains of BLC 2 powder and Winchester small
rifle primers with a C.O.L. of 2.210" I crimped the cases with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Hang
in there. Follow the FAQ's. Tons of great info there! By the way. I have owned a couple of
Savages. I sold them. They never lived up to their hype for me. That Accutrigger is kind
of dopey in my humble opinion. I wouldn't buy another one. I am much more happy with
my Handi's!

Robert

FLNT4EVR · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2009, 03:10:34 AM »

What is the rifelings rate of twist. If it is the older 1 in 12 you just may need to go to lighter bullets,45 to 55 grn. should do nicely.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2009, 04:15:03 AM »

I agree, you should have bought the Savage.

From this forum one will get the impression that all H&Rs are tack drivers but in fact it is a crap shoot, you may get a good one or you may get a scatter gun. Generally speaking, the barrel is the rifle and H&R barrels are poor quality, with oversize bores, shallow grooves, tight and loose spots, even crooked bores are common. You pay your money and take your chance. The handi rifle is notoriously sensitive as to how they are rested. That is a very poor quality in a hunting rifle where the situation dictates the location of the resting point. Now with all of that said, two inch groups are hardly terrible. If it were a deer rifle you'd be fine with a two inch group. I'd be happy if my .22 Hornet would do two inches "consistently" rather than just occasionally.

Guy Pike · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2009, 04:19:47 AM »

Put it in the classifieds, cut your losses and move along. Life's to short to let a cheap rifle get under your skin.

Inrut24/7 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2009, 04:36:10 AM »

Quote from: 223dog on January 09, 2009, 09:10:55 AM

Yes I am full length sizing the brass, The load Is 21.5 grain H322, 60 grain hornady spire points. The factory ammo preformed the same; 55 grain bullets and 68 grain bullets.
if You have a better load Let me know I am just getting started reloading.

H322 is my favorite powder for bullets 50 grains and under. I have tried it with bullets up to 70 grains and never got any good accuracy with it and the heavy bullets. If you still want to shoot a 60 grain bullet i suggest you try some Reloader 15 powder, if they wont shoot good with it they probally wont shoot good with any powder.

mrbgt · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2009, 07:51:35 AM »

try 45-53 grn bullets, if your rifle is 1in12 twist it'll like the lighter stuff . i dont have a handi .223 but all my .223's like 53 grn hornady match with around 24.5 of h335

Tarn · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2009, 03:56:11 PM »

I have two .223's,one a stainless handi (22"barrel) and the other is a Ultra(24"barrel).They both shoot real good with Vamx 50gr over 25.4gr's of H335,by the way the ultra also shoots 75gr with good accuracy.
I had to break in the Ultra more than the other .223 for some reason.The Coyote's still go down no problem though.

JerryKo · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2009, 02:18:02 AM »

Quote

I had to break in the Ultra more than the other .223 for some reason.

It is my understanding that stainless will break in faster. I think I read that at E arthur browns sight. It was compared to chromemoly steel. I do not know my metals, and am not sure if Handis are steel carbon steel chromlysteel.... and so on, and what the difference and all that. So take it for what its worth.

Jerry

223dog · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2009, 12:32:57 PM »

I will try to shoot It with a better rest and with the forearm off and see if that works. I think that i 'll also try the spacer in the forearm. If I can find some powder around here I will try some of the loads suggested. H322 was the only powder I could find.

SM Bob · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »

I tried the "O" ring trick first. It didn't work for me on my 223 Bull Handi. I ended up
bedding the forend with RTV the way it is covered in the FAQ's. The torque on the
forend screw is critical. Too loose or too tight, no good! Groups look like a shotgun!
Just the right amount of torque and you can cover a 3 shot group with a dime at 100
yards.

Robert

223dog · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2009, 12:11:03 PM »

I tried The o ring spacer in the fore end. I tried one nylon washer but after i tightened it back up I still could not slip a peace of paper down the fore end. Next I tried two washers and After i tightened it up I still could not slide a peace of paper down, I could slide it down about 1-2 inches. Are the washers to soft? Or am i tightening them too much! Do I need to sand some of the fore arm out? This is the synthetic stock most of the FAQ are about wood stocks. i might try to do some sanding tomorrow or try the fridge magnet.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2009, 12:14:48 PM »

The only method I've used with any success on the synthetic forend is the pillar method I listed in the FAQs. You may also try using a loctited ¼-20 set screw in the stud to use as a stop for the screw in conjuction with the O-ring so it can only be tightened so far, that's in the FAQs too.

Tim

223dog · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2009, 12:25:49 PM »

I looked for the set screws today at the hardware store and could not find them. I think that I'll look again tomorrow to see if I can find some different o-rings or grommets. I'll look again fore the set screws. Is it wise to sand the fore end down on synthetic stocks?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2009, 12:40:12 PM »

I just

realized you're working with the Choate Varmint forend, for mine I sanded the forend from the stud forward, then used an old credit card with a hole in on the stud as a shim, between the sanding and the shim the barrel is floated from the stud forward and it shoots good from the bipod adapter. The hardest part dealing with it is when it's too tight, you may need to change the hole position to relax the fit so it just stays on without the screw installed, that seems to be the best for H&Rs in general, maybe adding a pressure point at the tip of the forend may work too, doesn't take long to find out.

Tim

223dog · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2009, 02:07:13 PM »

Yes I am dealing with the choate fore end. Sorry I didn't say that earlier. Are you talking about the hole for the bi pod and the screw for the bi pod?

I understand what you mean with the shim and sanding

I'll give it a try. Thanks for the help. The o-ring washers really were just getting smashed too much. so tomorrow i'll get some sand paper and something thin like a credit card for the shim and give it a try.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2009, 02:24:14 PM »

No, the forend stud hole, that's the only place to adjust how tight the forend fits the frame, unlike the wood forend which the spacer can be sanded or shimmed to adjust how it fits.

Tim

223dog · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2009, 05:30:21 AM »

I Tried a few of the suggestion and I am a starting to think that the rifle might stick around a little longer! I first tried neoprene washers on the forearm, they didn't work well they would smash down to much and not float the barrel. Next i tried a nylon washer, it almost floated the barrel. I then decided to do some sanding. I sanded all the parts of the forearm that came in contact with the barrel from the forearm screw to the end of the forearm. The sanding along with the nylon washer made the barrel floated (I might have sanded too much but it doesn't touch at all) I also found some fridge magnets of different thickness to try if the washer didn't work. I went to the range with my shooting bags and set up with the bags not touching the forearm. I sighted in the rifle. About a 1 1/2 inch group. Next I moved the bag up under the forearm, still about a 1 1/2 inch group. Tried different Bullets The point of impact was a little different but that is normal. The groups were anything from 2 to 1 1/2. Also i was not letting the barrel cool all the way down. I wanted to see if the heat would affect the point of impact; it didn't just made the groups larger. The best group was just over a inch with some hand loads. The worst was shooting wolf ammo in a hot barrel about a 3 inch group. So should I mess with it more? Or should I just work on a Load for it?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2009, 05:39:28 AM »

I'd shoot your best load without the forend, if it shoots better, the forend needs more attention, if it shoots the same, work on a better load.

Tim

brad925 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2009, 05:51:10 AM »

Listen to the guys here they know what they are talking about. As for you get what you pay for.....B...sh...t. I have owned enough thousand dollar rifles to know that they can give you all the same headaches. Paying 200 to 400 makes them alot easier to deal with. If your rifle checks out then start with your load and bullet combo. My Sako took almost 2 yrs. of playing with to get it to shoot but when i found the right combo WOW!!!! It went from 3.5" groups to .25" and hit 4" gongs at 400 yds all day long.

striker525 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2009, 06:22:42 AM »

I floated the barrel on my Ultra 223 and found that after and during shooting at the range the barrel ended up touching in a couple of places and it would throw the groups off. I took sandpaper with me the next time and fixed it as I shot. Just another suggestion.

223dog · « **Reply #25 on:** February 05, 2009, 07:29:49 AM »

I think I'll try it with the forearm off. That is a simple and easy suggestion thanks

JerryKo · « **Reply #26 on:** February 05, 2009, 08:56:24 AM »

POI may shift a good bit with the forearm off. So maybe a couple at shorter range first and adj your zero then. Just something I ran into before and thought I'd let you know.

Jerry

togojeff · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2009, 09:30:49 AM »

My .223 Ultra with a bull barrel will shoot 1 inch groups at 200 yards. I have never done any work on the gun, this is how it shot right out of the box,I guess you could say I got lucky.
The load I am using is 23.8 grains of IMR 3031
with 50 grain V-Max bullets and Winchester brass. Twist on my rifle is 1 in 9. No crimp.
I am also using a Bushnell Legend 5X-15X scope and am really happy with it.

prairiedog555 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2009, 11:35:12 AM »

I have a 20" bull .223 and .308 with survivor synthetic forearm. Neither barrel shot really well to start. The things that made the most positive difference for me was lapping the barrel, like 500 passes, and for the O ring cushion I cut off about 3/8" from a clear plastic tube. I have a wide gap from forearm to barrel, loose actually. Also did the trigger thing and that did lighten it some. I like mine. Switch barrels and shoot.