45LC/410 survivor reloading

[witkov]

I am glad to have found this group.   I have really learned from reading all of your posts. 

The attached photos are of my 45LC/410 Survivor and some loads I use with it.  It is nickel plated with an epoxy bedded Ultra scope mount, Warne rings and a Tasco 1.5 X 4.5 shot gun scope.  Otherwise it is stock.

I originally bought it for my daughter as a "cool" .410 but quickly took it over and lately have spent more time reloading for it than all the rest of my firearms combined.  In four years I have fired 1100+ bullets as well as 25 lbs of #9 and 3 lbs of # 6 shot out of it.   To feed it I have taken up bullet casting and have converted two rifle cases to fit it.   I have had great success with the 11.4X74R wildcat of the 9.3 x 74R.   I won't go into specifics but suffice to say it can significantly improve on 45LC performance at lower pressures especially with very heavy bullets.

The third photo shows a chamber cast of the weapon between a 11.4x74R and a 45LC case.  It clearly shows how much free bore the Colt has in the chamber.  Even the 1.6” long Lyman #457132 in the longer case is 1/4” off the lands.  The rifle does not like lead bullets from the 45LC case.  Even very hard ones lead the bore badly.    It does best with jacketed bullets driven as fast as possible.

I've seen some posts about this round in the Contender/Encore forums but not much in the NEF.  I would like to hear from anyone else who has experience with loading for this weapon.  I would especially like to hear from any others who are using the 11.4 X 74R case.

Regards,
Mike

[witkov]

This is the photo of the chamber cast

[billy_56081]

I am using brass cased 410 shells with .452 bullets over Trailboss. Seem to be working good for me.

[stuffit]

How are you sizing you're brass.   I ran into "neck-thickness" issues.  Inside neck reaming  helped but got kinda tedious.  I did the chamber cast too.  Don't have my figures right now.  Bullet diameter and neck thickness were critical issues with both the .410 brass shells and the 9.3X74R brass.  The process is kinda absorbing.  Never did shoot my last re-loads.  But it was interesting while I was attempting to do it.
s.

[torpedoman]

what powder, how much , how much shot?and does your 410 have a choke? worried about 45's thru a  double with modified and full choked bbls

[witkov]

I have been using a 45LC Lee Classic loader with a spacer to neck size the cases, seat the bullet and form the crimp.  The only bullet that has given "neck size" issues has been the long Lyman Postell.  I solved this by running the "finshed" round into a press mounted RCBS 45LC sizer die without the decapping pin. This is important because you need the ram and the shellholder to remove the round from the die.  The Lee Classic dies get stuck when you do this and the only way to get them off is to pound on the nose of the bullet.

This is NOT .410 ammo.  Rounds so constructed will not even chamber in a .410 chamber.  Even if they will firing a .452 bullet in a .410 bore is asking for disaster.  This ammo is only for the rifled 45LC/.410 barrels which measure .452.

I have been using a SB1 shot gun frame which is not as strong as the SB2 rifle frame.  For safety loads should not exceed the 14kpsi max of the 45LC.  I have been working with bullet weights from 185 gr through 535 gr.  For shotgun loads I have been using 1/2 oz. #9 loads in the blown out 303 cases and 7/8 oz #6 in the 11.4 x 74R cases.  For powder I use Unique, H4198 and IMR4064 for rifle  and 296 and H4198 for the shot gun.

[stuffit]

FWIW, the Lee gas checked C430-310-RF in a relatively soft (BHN - 10) alloy sized at .451 showed some promise in the long fire formed 9.3x74R brass after thinning the neck area with a Forster inside neck reamer, albeit, it is a kinda "feelie" type of procedure because the length of the 9.3 brass is more than the Forster trimmer is designed to handle.   Suffice to say, I managed. 

Not to be a naysayer, but, it seems that running the loaded round into the case sizing die to get it down to chambering size is going to alter bullet size as well.  Did you ever check to see what your final effective bullet diameter was after that process?

I'm getting the feeling that your H&R chamber is a little more on the side of generous than mine.  I'm going to check my notes today on the diminsions of the chamber cast and post them later on. 

And BTW, thanks for your interesting post and input.  I may get re-inspired here.   
s.

[JerryKo]

I would like to see the chamber cast dems too.  I never got around to doing mine, but did realize it was not a straight wall to the grooves.  I eliminated the oversized mouth with a 45/70 factory crimp die and spacers to align the crimp.  It did get tricky with the 74r brass but the results and performance were well worth it.  I'll search for my thread on this later .  I used mostly the 405 grain Laser cast and ran through sizing dies to get to .454 and .452. 


Jerry

[witkov]

Chamber cast dimensions from my Survivor

Case just in front of the rim - .480

Diameter at 2.92 - .476

Forcing cone starts at 2.98  ends at 3.24

Bore diameter -.452

I cast the Lyman #457132 from half linotype and half pure lead. I first tried pure linotype but had sizing problems so added lead. The ones I kept weighed between 530 and 532 grains.   I am using two Lee nose first sizing dies, first .454 then .452.  Adding the lead made it soft enough to re-size easily.  It is the first rifle bullet I've tried. 

Stuffit, I am sure you are correct that resizing the case with the bullet in it reduces the bullet diameter in that part of bullet inside the case.  However the accuracy has been quite acceptable and there is not leading so it does not seem to be an issue.

Mike

[stuffit]

Mike,
Thanks.  I was right about the relative chamber dimensions.  My chamber begins to narrow immediately ahead of the .45 Colt portion, and goes down pretty quickly.  With unaltered brass (not inside neck reamed) .452" bullets loaded in both brass .410 shells and in the altered (fire-formed) .9.3x74R brass will not chamber if they measure better than 0.469" - 0.470" on the leading edge of the brass.  And, without the inside neck reaming they were all in that category.  At 0.469" or less for the neck of the finished round they all chambered OK.

My barrel is the .410/.45Colt combination  for the Handi Rifle.  They drilled and tapped it for me and it takes the standard H&R mount.  But there's no doubt that the chamber of my Handi is smaller at the critical points than is the circumstance with your rifle.  And this is, no doubt, the reason for our differing experiences.

And, of course, the proof of the pudding and all that is in the shooting and if you're getting good accuracy with your method, then the necessary sizing apparently is not detrimental.  I expect I'd need to open up the front of my chamber to get it to function correctly with either type of the longer brass.  Thanks again for sharing your information.  I've enjoyed rethinking the project.
s.

[JerryKo]

If you come across a way to open up the front of the chamber i.e making it a true straight wll, let us know.  I felt before that would be the easiest way to chamber for the 74r cartridges.

Jerry

[quickdtoo]

I'd check with Fred at 4D for a reamer, he has reamers that aren't listed on his site. 

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/index.php

[witkov]

If you look at the photo of the chamber cast you can see a break over point at 1.25.  I assume that is to prevent it from chambering  .454s.  It is straight .476 from that point up to the forcing cone.

I know that the combo chamber is very different form the straight .410 chamber.  It is interesting to see differences in the combo chambers also.  Mine was made in 2002, what year is yours?

Mike

[JerryKo]

Bought mine used from another member here.  Be that as it may, mine WILL chamber a .454 Casull.  Not sure if it was altered before my purchase.  It came with a three hole tapping for scope base, but is misaligned and can only catch two holes.  SO if other mods were done, I'm not aware. 

The ONLY problem I have with chambering either the 444 Marlin or 74R brass is where the bullet is inside the case mouth.  This is why I like using the 45/70 Lee FCD to make this area smaller than chamber.  I have not had any leading issues either.  I was using Laser Cast bullets in 405 for 45/70 and as stated before resizing with LEE bullet sizers.  I believe I was in the 1800fps range with these bullets and the 74r case.

Tim,  I'll have to check on that reamer one day.  Considering making my 45lc CC into a 460 also.  Been wanting that for a long time now. LOL>

Jerry

[quickdtoo]

 

[billy_56081]

I have been firing my survivor with Brass cased 410 shells using 300 grain.452 Hornady SST muzzle loader bullets and 300 grain XTP,s. My chamber cast measues .476 at 2.3 " which is the end of the case and the outside diameter of the loaded round is .470. I use a 45-70 die with the decapper removed both prior to and after seating the bullet. I am Planning on gettin a set of 45 colt dies and having the threaded end drilled out so the case can be run through and full length sized, then I will use the 45-70 die for final ironing out after bullet seating. I am using data for a low pressure cartridge of similar size. Right now I am shoting a pretty light load giving me 1400 fps with a 300 grain bullet. I think this is plenty for white tail.

[stuffit]

That sounds like a workable senerio.  Have you compared the accuracy of the loads in the brass 410 cases  with those of similar MVL in standard .45 Colt   brass?  The reason I ask is that I also have a Tarus Judge and have been pleasantly surprised by the accuracy at 25 yds of some cast bullet reloads in standard. .45 Colt brass.  And, truth be told, the bad press of the standard length 45 Colt reloads in the H&R 45C/410 barrels disuaded me from actually giving it much of a personal  trial.  So was wondering?
s.

[witkov]

JerryKo: Have you fired the Casull in that barrel?  It must have been on an SB2 frame?

The reason I ask is it has been suggested that the loads I have been using are a little brisk for an SB1 frame and they are no where near Casull pressures.

My experiments to date with the 11.4x74R case:

I got a 185gr JHP load to shoot accurately at over 2400 fps.

I have a 300gr JSP at 2050 fps

I have a 370 gr WFLGC at 1700 fps

I got the 535 gr to over 1500fps just to see if I could.  I also have a 1100 fps load at this weight that is very accurate.  At the faster end of the spectrum there is serious flinch inducing recoil with this light of a rifle.

I have even become quite proficient at shooting clay with it.  I am sure I look ridiculous using the scope but it is always a conversation starter.  It has taken it's only game as a shotgun.

Tim, you got me thinking.....   

Since my loads are too hot for my SB1 frame the only "reasonable" thing to do is to break down and get one of those skeletonized flute barrel .243s I have been lusting after. 

It's clearly a safety issue.

stuffit,  I shot 600 rounds of 45lc out of mine trying to find accuracy.  Couple of observations:

It did not like lead period.   Leaded the bore badly.

It liked velocity. it shot the light 185 gr best at 1600 fps which was only a 100 fps gain over the same load in my 5.5 Ruger


Mike





 

[billy_56081]

I have only tested at 50 yards and have been getting groups in the 2" range out of the 410 cases. Using 410 cases it of utmost importence to me as we are shotgun only here.

[quickdtoo]

Tim, you got me thinking.....   

Since my loads are too hot for my SB1 frame the only "reasonable" thing to do is to break down and get one of those skeletonized flute barrel .243s I have been lusting after. 

It's clearly a safety issue.

Yup, got to keep safety in mind, specially when it comes to justifying the expenditure to wifey!!

Tim

[billy_56081]

Mine is used on an SB2 frame and I am going to pump up the velocity next year. I would like to get over 2000 FPS out of the 300 grain SST's. I'm thinking I should be able to get this velocity while still only having pressures in the trapdoor range.  There is near an inch of freebore on my chamber still I am thinking this is lke a weatherby chamber.

[gelandangan]

I have one of this great gun, but am too afraid to use anything but a 45LC case.

Just a few quick question guys,

what type of powder do you use on those Giant cases?
Smokeless or Black powder? ( witkov gives a list of smokeless stuff but they seems to be fast powders there)
Do you use any filler?
How full or empty is the case  after the powder is filled in?

Would secondary ignition a problem?

[witkov]

billy_56081

I take it that it's shotgun only where you hunt and that is why you use the .410 cases?

Are they the 2.5" Magtechs?  How strong are they?  I have not used them.

gelandangan,

If you are using a SB1 shotgun frame stay below 14kpsi.

That said, the 11.4 case has about 30% more volume than a 45/70 so in theory pressure should be 30% less with the same charge and bullet sectional density.   

Starting loads for the Trapdoor Springfield are generally listed at about 14kpsi so that might be a place to look for ideas.   

Charge density will be very low so only certain powders will work.  Unique is always good.  I haven't tried it  but Trail Boss is specifically made for this type of case.  So is XMP-5744.  Either of the 4198s should work, I like the Hogdon version.   296 was very erratic as a rifle propellant but works great for the shotgun loads.

I do not use filler.  From my research and experience it is not needed for smokeless loads. 

I am not sure what you mean by secondary ignition.  I use a large rifle primer, mostly CCI.  They seem to get the party started quite effectively.

Regards,
Mike

[gelandangan]

I am not sure what you mean by secondary ignition.

Mike,
Thanks for the reply..
What I meant is the secondary explosion due to small charge in large case.

this effect is illustrated on many sites such as:
http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=180402

and a few others.

and here is an excerpt from Hodgon website
====================================
For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.
=====================================

The problem I have is if W296 is not to be reduced for more than 3%, how would the 296 be used in those HUGE cavernous cases like the  11.4 case without fillers?

I am not questioning your results, but I am worried to do the same.

I like the 45LC as a cartridge.. they are nice and mild and very well behaved.
That is why I bought the survivor.. I am dazzled    by the 45LC designation and forget to read the /410 behind it.
Now I regret this blunder and looking either to fix it by using LARGE case to fit, OR re barrel the dang thing..

I am happy to see this thread where someone already doing what I planned to do.. and live to tell the tale   

[billy_56081]

Yes the cases I am using are magtech. I am using an SB2 Frame. I use the low pressure loads as I do not believe the cases are overly srtong.

[stuffit]

I am speaking for only myself here, but, after encountering the various diameter/length glitches with the longer brass and considering the benefit I might get in improved velocity/bullet-weight/accuracy over the difficulties, ostensible and real, that accompanied use of the short .45 Colt brass, I began to ponder on just what my goal was.  The removable choke had to be taken off for any effective use of the rifle so a quick switch from the .410 to .45 Colt (or other made up rifle/pistol round) wasn't a serious consideration.  If improved rifle accuracy/power was the only goal, using the longest (9.3x74R) brass I had at the time was only going to allow simulation of either "Ruger level" .45 Colt loads or, at most .45-70 loads of various bullet weights and mvls.  Now by that time H&R had come up with a .45 Colt barrel for the Handi with the optimum chamber/throat/barrel dimensions, and they had long manufactured a .45-70.  In short,  it seemed to me that I was laboriously involved in "reinventing the wheel" and it was taking an inordinate amount of time.  Hence the suspension and rethinking of the project.  It was all fun, educational even though the effort, in retrospect, now seems a little more than I'd bargained for.  I'll follow this thread with attentive interest and cheer from the sidelines for a while, extending thanks for all the additional input this thread has brought on the project.

FWIW, the .454 Calsull does chamber easily in my barrel although I would never consider firing one in it.  I purchased the barrel new and they fitted it to an older .223 receiver acquired in the form of a youth rifle from a local pawn shop. 
 
stuffit

[JerryKo]

In short,  it seemed to me that I was laboriously involved in "re-inventing the wheel" and it was taking an inordinannt amount of time.

Stuffit,....amen.  My thoughts almost exactly!

It easier the screw in a chock than to swap barrels.  Also easier to carry a choke then an extra barrel.  That was my reasoning, and it works for any type of "walk about" setup.


Here is my out of date thread if interested:  Warning lots of rambling.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,138564.msg1098541811.html#msg1098541811

[gelandangan]

JerryKo

Thanks for the heads up to your writeups.  Definitely eye opening   

Gelan

[witkov]

Gelan,

I've heard of the small charge explosions you posted to.  Don't know if it's true or not. I have not experienced it.   The problems I had were the other way.  Too light of charges not developing enough pressure.  This manifests itself in smoke, unburned powder and terrible accuracy.  296 is very prone to this.


JerryKo, stuffit,
I agree that it can be a time consuming process but for myself consider it as time well spent. I have enjoyed all the tinkering.  I get tired of reloading the same 30-06 or 45LC load over and over. There is nothing new.  One of the 45LC loads I use is at least 90 years old.  Playing with this chamber has given me an opportunity to experiment with something "new"; at least to me. I say this somewhat tongue in cheek but there is always a small victory thrill when one of my creations goes off and the weapon doesn't blow up.....  I look at it as a hobby. 

I came at the whole process as a way of making use of a bunch of .303 brass.  I've used the gun a lot as a shot gun. It is a cheap way of breaking clay.  For someone like Billy_56081 who is required to hunt with a shot gun it is good alternative to a 12ga. slug.

I hunt once in blue moon and have a safe full of specialized weapons that have not seen service so the chances of the Survivor actually going on many hunts is slim. That said I wouldn't imagine that there would be any game, fur or feather, that it wouldn't do OK with ( I have not developed a steel shot load so waterfowl might be pushing it).

Regards,

Mike

[stuffit]

Mike,
I've enjoyed your thread on this interesting firearm with multi-caliber/single-chamber potential and  certainly the time spent in pursuit of  more versatility and efficiency in its fodder is, IMHO, well invested for all the reasons you mention in your last post.  It was/is a worthwhile thought exercise as well as a learning process.  And, as you indicate, the process is fun too.  My conclusions are/were my own, fitting my situation, age, and setting.  It is refreshing and enlightening to learn how you and the others encountered and overcame similar obstacles and how you approached/overcame them.  It's all good.  Thanks again for initiating this thread and for your additional input on the project.
 
stuffit