Author Topic: Handloading for the Handi Rifle (Read 3641 times)

stimpylu32 · « **on:** March 04, 2008, 07:49:34 AM »

Far too many of us have found that to Handload for the Handi you have to have a far diffrent mindset than loading for a bolt gun . The Handi does not lend itself to just neck sizing in most cases , were as the standard bolt gun will be more forgiving as to headspace , the Handi does not have the cam-over leaverage to make that extra .0005 fit the chamber and still have a proper lockup .

I have also had to rethink most of what i have learned as far as case sizing when dealing with these rifles , mostly i have to remember that i need to bump the shoulder back with about every loading just to compensate for the flex of the design . Also i have had to realize that the factory trim length may not always be the best to use given the fact that some of these rifles have VERY long throats while some have almost none at all .

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is to Handload for the Handi , one need to approach the rifle in a slightly diffrent frame of mind .

Hopefully this makes sense to everyone .

Richard

burntmuch · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2008, 08:20:08 AM »

Stimp Im getting ready to reload for my handi 35 whelen. Ive shot factory rounds with no problems & very descent accurracy. This is a barrel & reciever that has been sent back to the factory & "fixed". Im using lee a collet die & will be starting with some 200 grain rem corlocts & hornady 180 SSPs . Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks Jay

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2008, 08:45:14 AM »

Jay

The only problem that i see is with the Collet die , you will not be able to bump the shoulder back when needed . you may get by with the first loading but you will at some point need a FL Sizer die . The fact that factory ammo does well in the rifle will give you a starting point , measure a factory round from the case head to the shoulder and from the case head to the top of the case neck .

This will give you a reference point when you need to set the shoulder back and trim to length , also try to use the same bullet style and weight as factory for your first loads , ( trying to take as many problems out of the first loading as possable ) .

Most importantly , enjoy .

stimpy

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2008, 09:01:25 AM »

Jay,

Lee doesn't list a collet die for the 35 Whelen, is it a custom? They also don't list a case length gauge for the 405 Win, but I have one on order, so maybe they just don't list it on their website.

In any event, you'll need a FL or at least a body die sooner or later if one can be found, I didn't see one listed at Midsouth or Midway.

Tim

McLernon · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2008, 11:02:51 AM »

The first step in reloading a Handi is to get it shooting right and learning how to shoot it. Then you can tune to your heart's delight. At least this has been my experience.

Mc

burntmuch · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2008, 12:00:02 PM »

Tim I found the collet die on ebay. Matt parliment steered me towards using the collet die. So I gotta get a sizing die too. I wanna do some barnes tsx eventually. But I figured the rem corlocts would be a good way to get to know the gun Ive only shot 15 or so rounds thru it so far. Seems to be fairly accurate so far

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2008, 12:33:05 PM »

I've only used the collet die for the 22H, works great for it. I wonder how many more things they don't list on their website that might be available, guess I'll have to get a catalog. They don't list the 405Win trimmer, but Midway has em, one more I can do on the Trim Mate instead of the Lyman Univeral.

thanks,

Tim

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2008, 01:46:27 PM »

Stimpy - you are so right. I loaded for bolts for a lot of years, then got into the Handi Rifles. You not only think differently when you reload, you have to think differently when you tune them and even your technique when you hold the gun and even when you pull the trigger. Bolt guns are a little more forgiving with the reloads and how you hold them. I still like my Handi's, there is just some thing about them that keeps drawing me in. I am still learning about the these compelling rifles.

greg916 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2008, 02:07:15 PM »

i have recently been reloading with the lee classic loader, the hit em' with a hammer kind. also use the lee case trimmer. so far i have had no problem. have 30-30, and 38 special. i have followed these reloading posts and am starting to get concerned. have 100 cases, each has been reloaded about 3 times. how concerned should i be about neck sizing only? when i loaded for the 22 hornet i set my dies to neck size, had no trouble there either???

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2008, 02:19:49 PM »

I finally had to give up on necksizeing on my Handi also.I always fullength size them so the action will close and lock up good. The bolts are just necksized,and they work fine. Digger

rbergum95 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2008, 02:33:35 PM »

i only necksize for 3 of my handis. .22 hornet , .223 rem, and 7.62x39. the rest i found i have to FL size for or else i get pop opens and inconsistent accuracy.

ron

FW Conch · « **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2008, 04:47:22 PM »

Yes it is true , I am a very low volume reloader so I guess I have excess time to put into my hobby. So I case length trim every time I load. Consistency is supposed to be a major part of accuracy. If we let the case stretch to beyond maximum length, trim back .010 pluss the stretch, then repeat the process, where is the consistency ? I know many people have very busy lives but I have no problem doing this while I'm watching "History" or "Discovery". I like the nice square edge this leaves on the neck & it solves one of the problems that can arise when shooting a Handy- breach opening. If I am wrong in these assumptions someone please point out my errors.

Jim

Bob A · « **Reply #12 on:** March 04, 2008, 05:27:32 PM »

Like a few others, I neck size for my Handi 22 Hornet. Seems to work out fine. I figured the rimmed cases would be ok, since they headspace on the rim.
I don't have a Handi 30-30 but I have heard from others that they are easy to load for and neck sizing works for them. I am planning to get a 30-30 this year. Haven't decided if it will be a barrel or complete rifle but I am leaning toward the rifle.

Bob A

chutesnreloads · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2008, 06:36:23 PM »

I would discourage ANY reloading while watching TV.I won't even have a radio on.Little mistakes from a distraction can have bad consequences.Let's be safe out there.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2008, 06:40:56 PM »

Case prep isn't what I'd consider needing my full attention, Ive trimmed, deburred, chamfered and primed hundreds of cases while watching TV. Charging cases and seating bullets is another matter.

Tim

FW Conch · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2008, 10:49:57 PM »

Thanks Tim

That's what I meant

Now that I'm safe Mr. chutesnreloads what do you think of trimming the case on every load to insure consistency ? Jim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2008, 05:41:35 AM »

If our goal is to make each round as identical to the rest as possible to insure they all shoot the same, trimming every case is just one step closer to achieving that goal, and to me that includes sizing and trimming new brass too.

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2008, 06:23:13 AM »

Stimpy:

You forgot to tell folks that there are a-lot of misconceptions people have of break action rifles..and for many..this is the cause of a whole bunch of frustration when trying to assemble top notch handloads for the Handi rifle...What some forget is a simple fact...A hinged action allows movement..It is not static like a fully locked up bolt gun..The chamber has movement to it on firing..hence the terminology of the action flexing..On initial firing...the chamber moves downward..into the breech wall...then as the barrel is whipping the opposite way..it moves upward and tries to open...The less frame barrel gap..and the tighter the tolerances are of the locking mechanism parts...(all of which have some degree of movement to them)..the greater the bore & breech face alignment you have to start..and..the greater the odds of having a normal acting rifle (when compared to a bolt gun anyway).. ...This is the #1 cause of pop opens on Handi's...too much movement on the chamber & locking parts.....oil on the shelf will cause this too by allowing excessive movement..These are friction fitting parts...On Handi's..(or any break action rifle) the tighter the tolerances...the greater the accuracy you will get...plain & simple...There have been a ton of Handi's...that have too much slop in these areas...not to mention the sloppy chamber dimensions and chamber to bore out of alignment issues...These types of rifles have been the bane to the company...but then...this happens when your trying to produce inexpensive rifles with out a ton of labor going into to them...FTMP...the % of these are lower than those that are good shooters..

Loading for a Handi rifle is the same as with any bolt gun..You have to find out what the gun likes & dislikes...I've necked sized for every one of my accurate Handi rifles..Some have done exceptionally well...others so-so..You absolutely correct...you don't have the camming action of a bolt gun..so it is important to be able to bump the shoulders back when needed..and running full pressure loads will cause cases to stretch faster than middle of the road loads on a sloppy chamber or an ill fitting barrel....It is going to be up to how tight & concentric and aligned the chambers are to the bore as to how well neck sizing does..There are a lot of Handi's that are out of round & alignment and close to being out of SAMMI spec on the chamber dimensions ...It's up to the individual to determine this..If a persons Handi is flexing enough to allow the cases to back out..Then you have a problem with that rifle..or your handloads/technique....because the receiver doesn't flex...it is the combination of all the parts with in it that is allowing this to happen...Sometimes...just changing the components of that load is enough to change the dynamics of the load which in turns changes the timing of the barrel whip..which in turns changes the forces acting upon the locking mechanism with in the breech and allow it to remain static long enough to act properly...other times it doesn't...Out of round cases at the web..brass that is longer on 1 side of the neck..all can be attributed to the chamber partially opening...In this case...neck sizing will do no good at all..

I also have had Handi's that didn't respond well to handloading..and would fire factory loads better than anything I could assemble...On these rifles...all of the throats were way too long..and the chambers on the loose sides of the SAMMI specs...On these rifles...factory ammo or full length resized non max loads were the only thing that would consistently stay on the paper..These rifles had issues...all the rest didn't...Like I said...it is up to the individual to find out what the rifle likes & dislikes...No 2 of them are exactly the same...

What should the new Handi or beginner handloader do...For factory loads..try as many different manufactures as one can afford too...Some factory loads are perfect for the Handi..The load within them allows the timing of the action to be true...Others..don't...and will throw flyer's everywhere...There may be some factory loads you can't reload as accurate for..or possible 2 or more...For the Hand loader...Start with the brass...just as Quick has posted...it is the foundation of the load to begin with...I recommend to shoot at least 2 boxes of factory ammo with the manufacture of brass your wanting to reload...and number each shell...This way...you will be able to inspect your brass before doing any of the reloading steps on it...I also recommend for every one to get a magnifying glass...to really be able to inspect the brass carefully...before doing any reloading..I completely degrease every shell..and the chamber & shelf before shooting ..this way..it has taken the unwanted oil issue out of the way...Look for out of round brass to begin with...If it is...then you know something is amiss with that load or the rifle...and this will save you a ton of money in components...Some factory loads just plain don't shoot good...There is usually a reason for that...but you have to know where to look...and what to look for..to be able to determine the "why"

Mac

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2008, 06:41:34 AM »

Mac

The way i type your lucky that i got that much done

but yes your right the handi needs to be approached in a diffrent fashion than most other rifles .

stimpy

McLernon · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2008, 06:56:27 AM »

The trouble I have with 2 out of three of my Handi rifles is that the the reaction on the lug shelf is off center adding considerably to the flexing motions of the action upon firing because there is an extra torsional flex that shouldn't be there. I have found it a waste of ammo trying different loads. Gradually accuracy is improving with the same load recipe as I have honed small amounts off the high side of the lug shelf to center the reaction force and eliminate the torsional flex. Neither of these rifles shot well with the fore-end off. My Hornet on the other hand from the start has had even pressure across the lug shelf as evidenced by the shiny marks (brinelling) across the entire width of the shelf. The Hornet, not coincidentally, shoots well without the fore-end in place. It remains to be seen whether it shoots well with the fore-end bedding job.

All the bolt guns I have reloaded for, and there are several, were easier to extract good accuracy from. Some like my CZ's were boringly accurate, shooting anything I fed them.

Mc

burntmuch · « **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:30:00 PM »

OK Im fairly new to reloading so this is a simple question for my simple mind

If I neck size for my 35 whelen handi & it doesnt chamber
being flush with the breech face, Then I need to FL size the case Type your answers slow Im new

Jay

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2008, 01:32:45 PM »

You'll have to size the case just enough that the action will close completely and lock up the same each time, the case can protrude from the chamber slightly and it can still lock up normally, it just depends on the barrel to frame gap. After firing a round, close the action with the spent case in the chamber, if it closes with no visible gas when looking across the barrel to frame gap, then you can neck size only, it should look the same as with an empty chamber, but if there's any gap at the top of the barrel, you'll have to slowly adjust the sizing die into the press a little at a time until that gap disappears. Or you can adjust the die in until the brass is flush with the chamber mouth which should give you acceptable headspace, the SAAMI max tolerance is .006" which would be a very noticable gap tween barrel and frame.

Tim

burntmuch · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2008, 01:42:22 PM »

So a case that fits but is too big will change the lock up & make the gap wider. got it. Its gonna be a week or so before I can reload some rounds. Baby at home crazy overtime at work & a nagging wife"just kidding" No time right now for the extra stuff. Hope fully I ll have a range report & more questions for ya guys Thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2008, 01:48:10 PM »

That's basically it, what happens due to the flex in the action is the pressure stretches the case just enough that it doesn't spring back and the case ends up too long to allow the action to lock up fully and you have a gap tween the top of the barrel and the standing breech. This is more prevelent with warmer loads in the higher pressure/larger case head cartridges, mainly the 30-06 family(243/270/280/308/-06/35W) since their pressures are all over 60kpsi and have .470" case heads.

Tim

chutesnreloads · « **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2008, 02:51:39 PM »

I'd say y'all can load the way you want.I'm still going to leave the TV off.An extra inspection of the case never hurt anything and I do this during case prep.As to trimming after every firing?...How can anyone argue that won't help accuracy?On the other hand I've a couple of guns you won't see the difference anyway so why bother.But the tack drivers....you bet...uniformity matters.

Couger · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2008, 12:49:30 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on March 04, 2008, 06:40:56 PM

Case prep isn't what I'd consider needing my full attention, Ive trimmed, deburred, chamfered and primed hundreds of cases while watching TV. Charging cases and seating bullets is another matter.

Indeed!

I totally agree that reloading requires careful attention, after case prep is done. Of course cranking out a box of shotshells ain't the same as making benchrest precision handloads.

Couger · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2008, 12:54:32 AM »

Quote from: chutesnreloads on March 05, 2008, 02:51:39 PM

I'd say y'all can load the way you want.I'm still going to leave the TV off.An extra inspection of the case never hurt anything and I do this during case prep.As to trimming after every firing?...How can anyone argue that won't help accuracy?On the other hand I've a couple of guns you won't see the difference anyway so why bother.But the tack drivers....you bet...uniformity matters.

Haven't seen the "C" word used her ...... as in CONSISTENCY!

Besides safety being extremely import, I think the next 'watch word' when handloading is CONSISTENCY.

hotburn76 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2008, 08:04:36 AM »

I plan on using a cast to get the exact specs on my 204 chamber and the other day I mentioned I used a depth mic to get a idea of how long my throat is and I measured 1.883. After I get my cast done and have hard numbers, should I not trim my cases to the spec of 1.84 with a max of 1.85, or should I let them get longer and be closer to the 1.88? Is it better to have as much of the throat full but not touching the end of the throat? If I cast mine at 1.88 what should I trim to?

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 07, 2008, 08:09:56 AM »

hotburn76

Your rifle will have to tell you that , some like to shoot with factory length while others do better with a little more throat fill . My 243 needs the little extra to shoot well while my 223 needs factory spec .

stimpy

hotburn76 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 07, 2008, 08:24:26 AM »

Stimp,

So your 223 has a long throat, but likes a factory specs, or does it have a short throat also?