Author Topic: 45/70Handi versus 45/70 Sharps (Read 4267 times)

Stan in SC · « **on:** November 26, 2007, 02:11:45 AM »

At a shoot for my firearm club I agreed to a match between a friend's Perdersoli Sharps replica which rifle he affectionately refers to as his "Quigley" rifle.The shooting was 5 shots at 100 yards using a standard 100 yard target.Shots were alternating which helped build a little suspense.Each of us shot our own loads.His being 405Gr.cast over Trailboss powder and mine being 300Gr. Remington JHP over REL7.
Art is supremely confident in his rifle's accuracy and is in truth a darn good rifleman.I've shot his rifle.I do not care for it.
I am pretty doggone confident in my rifle and in my own abilities.
The match commenced with him having the first shot which we both scoped and then I shot which we both scoped and there was a running commentary between us with each succeeding shot.It really did make for an interesting and enjoyable match between two good friends.
Not to drag this on too much,he beat me 42 to 38.BUT.....it just illustrated what many of us have said all along.The moderately priced Handi rifle can shoot on a par with much more expensive rifles.In this case he was shooting an $800 rifle and I a $225 rifle.
It was a fun competition and there will be a return match on January 8th. at our annual "Winter War" shoot.

Stan

The Goose · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2007, 03:07:03 AM »

You'll get him next time.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2007, 03:20:04 AM »

What position were you shooting from, or were you shooting off the bench?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 26, 2007, 03:45:09 AM »

Makes me want to sell my Shiloh Sharps and get a Handi rifle..... NOT.

I think there is more to it that just the accuracy, it is the gun. I own a Shiloh Sharps that cost me over $2400 and it shoots like a dream, but it is the craftsmanship I like and pay for. The Handi rifle may shoot just fine, but it will always be an inexpensive Handi rifle.

Look at different gun makers, compare a Sako in 375 H&H to a Remington, 357 H&H, it is not the caliber it is the gun itself.

gundownunder · « **Reply #4 on:** November 26, 2007, 04:40:45 AM »

38 to 42, that's pretty close and everyone here seems to be saying that a handi isn't a sharps.
Have you considered the possibility that your rifles are equal and he is a better shot than you, or his hand loads are a little better than yours. Next time swap rifles and see if the same 4 point difference occurs. The sharps costs 5 times more than the handi and I have a hard time believing that it's 5 times better, mind you I've only seen the sharps in pictures so I could be wrong.

Bob

Stan in SC · « **Reply #5 on:** November 26, 2007, 09:19:50 AM »

In all honesty I must say that he is a better overall shooter than I am.The difference was 2 points on each of two shots,about 1/2" difference on each one.That to me is not much difference considering the difference in costs of the two rifles.
I was using stock sights and he was using tang mounted peep.We were shooting off of the bench.
I'm not downgrading his rifle,just pointing out that a Handi,for it's relatively modest price,can shoot with the best of them.

Stan

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #6 on:** November 26, 2007, 10:14:53 AM »

Stock sights vs. peep? And he beat you by only 4 points? And you call him a better shooter? If you had equivalent sights you would have won easily. I can't wait for a rematch switching guns.

In my younger days I had a Ruger .22 semi-auto pistol with fixed sights. My friend had a .22 revolver that you had to remove the cylinder to unload/load and fixed sights. He complained that I shot better because I had a better gun. So we switched guns and he found out that he was wrong, I still shot better, only slower.

321 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 26, 2007, 11:53:23 AM »

Of no interest.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 26, 2007, 11:58:28 AM »

Good shootin Stan, way to show em!!

More money doesn't always = better accuracy!

Tim

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/feb97money.html

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 26, 2007, 01:26:18 PM »

I think you guys miss the point of the sharps and Shiloh Sharps. You can get a old crap gun that shoots like a dream, but it is still a crap gun. The Shiloh Sharps may cost more money, but it is not for just the accuracy but the nostalgia and craftsmanship that you pay for, but I would have to say, mine shoots extremely accurate. But I guess you would not understand that, seeing how you are all handi shooters.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #10 on:** November 26, 2007, 01:59:28 PM »

Congratulations Stan, I knew you were a fine gentleman and now I know you to be a good shot also. Isn't it great when we Handi shooters can keep up with or beat those expensive gun guys with our little old made in America by Americans single shots. I am also likewise fairly confident that the small difference in group size/score was attributable to the difference in sights. A buffalo would never have known the difference....<><....

wtroger · « **Reply #11 on:** November 26, 2007, 02:57:04 PM »

You know Redhawk I own both a Handi in 45/70 a Pedsoli in 45/70 and a Siamese Mauser in 45/70. the Pedsoli is the best looking and the most expensive the Siamese Mauser is the strongest and will shoot loads that aproach 458 win mag loads and the second most expensive and has a real fine finish. And guess what the Handi is the one I hunt with it is the easiest to handle and shoots the best not that any one of them shoots bad. The handi just fits my needs the best. I learned a long time ago price has nothing to do with accuracy. And I will continue to carry my crap gun and kill everything from armadillos to whitetails. No it ain't pretty but it does the job and that is what counts in my book.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 26, 2007, 03:28:19 PM »

Another's judgment clouded by cost. I guess you guys really don't get it, never mind. I guess you have to have a reason to make yourselves feel better because you shoot handi's and some how feel in your own mind you have to justify shooting them. I shoot better with a handi than them guys shooting a $2000 Sharps.

Hell I can shoot my Encore in 45-70 very well, my Marlin 45-70 is a tack driver, does that make them better than my Shiloh Sharps, NO... Is my Shiloh Sharps not worth the workmanship put into it because I can get a Handi that will shoot just as well? NO....

I have used a lot of guns to take game, including my Shiloh Sharps, but the reason I bought my Shiloh Sharps was not to out shoot others, but to have a gun that is a classic and more of a work of art.

So keep posting those feel good about shooting your handi's. But in the long run you still have a handi.

MSP Ret, just so you know, Shiloh Sharps is made in America, Montana to be exact.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 26, 2007, 08:04:25 PM »

Not all are dazzled by quality...not all are impressed with simplicity...but...most are impressed with accuracy...and if they aren't...only because of the price tag...well something is certainly wrong with them...All riflemen should be impressed with accuracy...Collectors...maybe not...but riflemen sure as hell should be...from the most expensive rifles with the finest accouterments...to the cheapest plain Jane shooter... Those that can afford the best...and those who can't...both should appriciate what both offer...and not snub either...just on cost alone..Those that snub the BC and put it down...just because it doesn't cost as much as a Shiloh Sharps..are unable to grasp the concept that folks can be perfectly happy with less...Those who are perfectly happy with inexpensive rifles and who would never spend $2000 on one...cannot understand why folks spend that much when their cheaper rifle fulfills their every desire...especially when they can shoot as well as those shooting those expensive rifles...This rivalry has always been around...in one form or another...the haves...against the have nots... Those that have the Sharps and can appreciate the BC for what it is...and what it is capable of...are the most fun to be around...

It's all about perception...and what is important to your sense of worth...If your into the name game...and not economically challenged...most likely you won't be shooting a Handi...If your pockets aren't as deep...and your more budget minded...then to attain something offered that is reminiscent of days past in a 45-70...Handi's are right up the correct ally...

Problems intermingling with both types usually leads to 1 or the other thinking they have something better than the other...for their own reasons...Just like here...and to each...the other is wrong....

Different strokes for different folks guys...There is nothing really to prove is there? I have owned rifles costing several thousands of dollars...BFD...If someone considers the Handi unworthy to shoot along side a Sharps...then they really don't have an understanding about the period these rifles came into being...and that there were all types of actions around...Some folks then could afford the very best...others couldn't..and we don't look down on folks here that can't afford a $2000 rifle...no matter how nice it is...and shame on anyone who does... To do this...that person is being a snob...and deserves trouncing at every chance...

Mac

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:21:21 AM »

Mac11700, maybe you totally misunderstood my post and replies. Maybe you are just trying to make yourself look like a advocate for guys that have not. But what ever it is, that was not my point in my posts.

I have inexpensive guns that SHOOT VERY WELL. I have expensive guns I expect to shoot very well. But for some of these guys to make it out that it is a waste of money to own such a expensive gun that is no more accurate than a handi is missing to point all together.

I was not saying anywhere that if you own a inexpensive gun that shoots good, that there is something wrong with you. But other make it seem that if a cheap gun like a handy shoots so good, why have an expensive gun like a Sharps. I am glad they have inexpensive guns that shoot well, but as you stated accuracy is what is needed for hunting and shooting. But why try to question others choices or make it seem like others want to show off because they have a work of art as well as a shooter.

I own 3 45-70's and they all shot extremely well, I don't have guns that are not accurate. The 45-70's I have cost from $500 to over $2000, but any of them will go in the field and I will use them to hunt with, is one better than the other, NO! I have them for different reasons.

But for the guys here that think just because a person spends $2000 for a gun, that it should but all the bullets in one hole every time it shoots is not realistic.
I understand we all buy guns for different reasons, I understand some people don't have the funds to buy $2000 guns. I buy mine to shoot and to hunt with, I am not a collector.

Stan in SC,
Please don't get me wrong, I am happy your handi shoot so good for you. That is why you bought it. It works for all your needs.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 27, 2007, 04:24:29 AM »

Your right...and I should have said so...However if you had fully understood what I was meaning when I did say... I said.....

Quote

Those that can afford the best...and those who can't...both should appreciate what both offer...and not snub either...just on cost alone

and the following as well...

Quote

.Those who are perfectly happy with inexpensive rifles and who would never spend $2000 on one...cannot understand why folks spend that much when their cheaper rifle fulfills their every desire...especially when they can shoot as well as those shooting those expensive rifles..Problems intermingling with both types usually leads to 1 or the other thinking they have something better than the other...for their own reasons...Just like here...and to each...the other is wrong....

...Then you would have understood I felt that there are snobs on both sides of this fence my friend... and I am just not an advocate for the have nots...but for both sides when each is realistic about the other...Pointing folks towards the accuracy...wither it comes from a special order $3000 Sharps...or from a $400 Buffalo Classic is my goal...Many here has encountered the....." My rifle is better because it cost more mentality" range snob...I know I have on several occasions...folks that think because they have spent $2k-3K for a set up...that it will automatically be a better rifle than nay one else on the range...These are the folks most of us love to trounce when ever we can...They have forgotten for one reason or another...or may have never understood the fact that price alone isn't what makes a rifle to a rifleman........On the flip side...there are those here that feel if it isn't a Handi rifle...it is a waste of money to own it...They have no need in their life to own something as nice...or in their present financial situation..could they ever afford something that expensive..therefore...to them...spending that amount of money is foolish....and will say so at the drop of a hat during a conversation about any rifle.....Nothing further could be a reality for many of us...These folks will never appreciate the finer aspects of a superbly crafted firearm...They have no aspirations towards owning one... Price is their main argument..but...I have to wonder if it is what is motivating them this way...

Yes Sir...there are snobs on both sides of the fence....

PS...Even though I own expensive rifles...I still enjoy trouncing the snobs who at the range when they brag about how much their rifle cost...you see...I really don't care if it cost $100...or $10,000...my main interest is how it shoots...Some of these folks are only trying to impress others about how much they spent on it... I will take the time to appreciate it how it was crafted when it is in my hands...enjoy the feel of finely polished & engraved metal...exotic woods mated perfectly to the metal being tastefully checkered...yes...Having a work of art is fine...and if that person is able to use it in the field that is great...for him...I certainly won't put him down for doing so...and neither should any one else...I worked hard for what I have...and am thankful for it...and am not the least bit jealous for those that have more...There are some here that aren't this way...There are some here...that don't have a lot...and are driven by jealousy & envy...There are some here...that do have a lot...and look down their noses at those that don't...Yes Sir...There are snobs on both sides of the fence...and like I said in my previous post...Problems intermingling with both types usually leads to 1 or the other thinking they have something better than the other...for their own reasons...Just like here...and to each...the other is wrong...

Mac

rex6666 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 27, 2007, 06:12:18 AM »

I guess i don't understand the Nostalgia in a PEDERSOLI sharps (that was the gun in the match) they are still made in some foreign country, for enough money you can make anything nice, but not necessarily accurate. Since the primary job of a gun is to be
accurate, if it is then it can hardly be called a crap gun. if it is not accurate then no
matter the cost it is a crap gun.
If i paid $80-100k for my ford pickup i would expect it to do what a Mercedes does,
but i only paid $30k and it still does what the Mercedes does, only better.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 27, 2007, 06:36:04 AM »

Quote

but i only paid $30k and it still does what the Mercedes does, only better.

Better for you perhaps...and how you feel about it...but not always to some one else...That's counter point...It's just 1 persons perception...namely yours in this particular instance about the truck...Now..in reality...if one has to place a value on an object to gain satisfaction...this is a wrong perception..just If one has to place value in a cheaper product that will do as much as a more expensive one...and gloat as well...Neither one is appreciating the other...This mine is better because it is cheaper...or mine is better because it cost more is childish...

Mac

rex6666 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 27, 2007, 06:54:44 AM »

My point is WHY pay double for any object if one of less than half price will do the same job.
I guess that is childish, makes sense to me. I'm just a 60 year old REDNECK kid any way.
of course i am not trying to pick the fly s--- out of the black pepper.
i would not come on a HANDI forum and talk about it being a crap gun, no matter how it shoots, if i felt that way i would not be here.
I feel very good about my Ford pickup, and feel it would do the same for anyone.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #19 on:** November 27, 2007, 07:27:32 AM »

Quote from: rex6666 on November 27, 2007, 06:54:44 AM

My point is WHY pay double for any object if one of less than half price will do the same job.

Methinks herein lies the difference of opinion!
As is often said when discussing the merits of HD versis metric motorcycles, "If I have to explain the difference, you'ld never understand!"

But then, I'm only a 62 year old redneck...

Richard

rex6666 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 27, 2007, 07:43:24 AM »

Well said Richard, even i can understand that.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 27, 2007, 07:50:27 AM »

Quote from: rex6666 on November 27, 2007, 06:54:44 AM

My point is WHY pay double for any object if one of less than half price will do the same job.
I guess that is childish, makes sense to me. I'm just a 60 year old REDNECK kid any way.
of course i am not trying to pick the fly s--- out of the black pepper.
i would not come on a HANDI forum and talk about it being a crap gun, no matter how it shoots, if i felt that way i would not be here.
I feel very good about my Ford pickup, and feel it would do the same for anyone.

I drive an 04' Ford 150 extended cab...so I know what you mean about Ford Trucks...but that don't make them the right choice for everyone...Why pay more...because that person wants to...and doesn't want the Ford...or the Handi...What is so difficult to understand......and I am sorry...if you think every one should like the handi...then that is being childish......Same goers for the Sharps...if a person thinks every one should like it just because...they are being childish...no matter where you are from...or how old you are

Mac

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** November 27, 2007, 08:10:47 AM »

Statement - "Isn't it great when we Handi shooters can keep up with or beat those expensive gun guys with our little old made in America by Americans single shots."

response - "just so you know, Shiloh Sharps is made in America, Montana to be exact."

To the person that wanted to argue my beliefs and my statement, the statement clearly refers to we (proud American) Handi shooters being able to keep up with or beating those "EXPENSIVE GUN GUYS" with our made in America by Americans single shots. It clearly states only that our guns, which are made in America, can keep up with or beat EXPENSIVE GUNS shot by those who prefer them. It does not make any statement about where those expensive guns are manufactured. Is there some hidden agenda I am missing here, especially since I knew where Shiloh Sharps are manufactured? I enjoy shooting Handis and find them for the most part very accurate, as accurate in most instances as other much more expensive guns that I have. I like Handis, if you don't that's OK with me, I cannot understand why you seem to want to argue about about some indefinable point....<><....

rex6666 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 27, 2007, 08:29:53 AM »

Well let me see, i for one missed the part about MADE IN AMERICA BY PROUD AMERICANS,
BUT I AM A PROUD AMERICAN, NOTHING HIDDEN
I as far as i know every one knows where sharps are made, but the topic was about
a PEDERSOLI (i think made in Italy) I wiill say again if you come on a HANDI forum and talk
about it being a crap gun then you need to be prepared to take some guff. If you have no problem with someone saying the Handi is a crap gun then why are either of you here,
do you enjoy being a crapshooter. no one is saying you have to like Handis but don't come here and put them down, i would not come to your house and kick your dog without expecting
a reprisal, and if i didn't get one i would have little respect for you.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 27, 2007, 08:58:10 AM »

Quote from: rex6666 on November 27, 2007, 08:29:53 AM

Well let me see, i for one missed the part about MADE IN AMERICA BY PROUD AMERICANS,
BUT I AM A PROUD AMERICAN, NOTHING HIDDEN
I as far as i know every one knows where sharps are made, but the topic was about
a PEDERSOLI (i think made in Italy) I wiill say again if you come on a HANDI forum and talk
about it being a crap gun then you need to be prepared to take some guff. If you have no problem with someone saying the Handi is a crap gun then why are either of you here,
do you enjoy being a crapshooter. no one is saying you have to like Handis but don't come here and put them down, i would not come to your house and kick your dog without expecting
a reprisal, and if i didn't get one i would have little respect for you.

rex6666, before you get your panties in a bunch, I did not say a Handi was a crap gun, I was referring to crap guns. My buddy has a Remington BDL and I call it a crap gun, it is beaten up and well used, but it shoots like a dream.
But you guys seem to have something to prove, by making statements like a handi shots as good as a $2000 gun, so why buy one of the expensive guns. It is more of on the lines of you have to make yourselves feel good because you shoot a less expensive gun. So lighten up and take a break.

cowboyup453 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 27, 2007, 09:13:12 AM »

Quote

I did not say a Handi was a crap gun

True you did not say they are crap, but you did say

Quote

But I guess you would not understand that, seeing how you are all handi shooters.

What did you mean by that?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 27, 2007, 09:55:34 AM »

Well if you shoot a handi as I have and at one time in my life I thought they were cool, I still like them, they have there place but not in my gun safe.

It is the way you guys feel you have to justify having one, but the truth be know, you don't have to try to make them out to be better than a $2000 to feel good about them. Enjoy them for what they are., that's all I meant by that.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** November 27, 2007, 10:18:48 AM »

Mic McPherson pretty much sums up the Handirifle on page 301 of his book, "Accurizing the Factory Rifle".

Tim

This interesting single-shot rifle offers surprising
accuracy in a very modest package. This
rifle's accuracy potential belies its very affordable
price. Further, the tinker need only do a few
special things to bring the best out of one of
these rifles.

This system is certainly adequate, as evidenced
by the astounding accuracy produced by
typical examples of these rifles.

The New England Firearms
Handi-Rifle (and the equivalent H&R Ultra) are a
marvel of modern engineering. Price is in the bargain
basement; performance is in the clouds.
These rifles function and shoot better than most
hardened riflemen will believe. One acquaintance
tells of a tough old Texas rancher, a multi-millionaire,
who chose this rifle as his Alasku and Canada
hunting companion on world-class safaris. If that
were not surprising enough, he fitted his .30-06
Springfield chambered Handli-Rifle (about a $200
gun) with a top-of-the-line Schmidt & Bender
hunting riflescope. (For those who do not know,
Schmidt & Bender is to riflescopes what Rolls-
Royce is to automobiles.)

DSMcG · « **Reply #28 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:35:23 PM »

Why can't we all just get along.

This "discussion" happens in all areas of competition. I would think we all would take great sense of satisfaction besting those that act like bantam roosters while stroking themselves regarding their respective equipment (or skills) - whatever the arena.

So...Redhawk1...I do not believe there is an argument here. The original poster describes a friendly "competition" between buddies that gave him personal satisfaction. His rifle and shooting was a match for his friends quality rifle and shooting skills.

We all have experienced something like this; I met a few sportsmen through a coworker and was invited to their skeet club. I showed up with a Mossberg 8 shot security pump gun (it's what I had on hand), fitted an appropriate $80.00 barrel and proceeded to hold my own. The frequency of the invites died down after "winning" a couple of the informal matches. One Sunday, for laughs, I fitted the regular 20'' barrel and almost cleaned the round - and haven't been invited back. I saw my buddy / coworker some time later and he confessed I could come back if I shoot a proper shotgun. Please.

I currently enjoy shooting Long range rifle comps and attended a Tactical bolt action match last July at the beautiful Sacramento Ca range. I spoke with a couple of the volunteers helping with the match and inquired about the BP silhouette matches routinely held there. They were very helpful and enthusiastic getting me educated and introduced me to some regular participants. Everyone was all smiles as well until they asked me what rifle I was going to use. No sooner was "Buffalo Classic" out of my mouth and the conversation was OVER. I mean nada, not interested, don't bother. Have a nice day. I garuntee there are folks reading this that know exactly what I'm talking about. OK, I understand (kinda) the NRA rules stipulate specific types of period firearms. But when some of the "non-snob" shooters suggested I could participate (without being scored) the purists raised such a fuss I could have punched them in the mouth. FU.

I take GREAT satisfaction handing many of these snobs their asses on a regular basis. I say this only because of the atmosphere THEY created. It's the same in the bolt rifle field. I can tell you - you see BIG bucks spent on a "high speed, low drag" tactical rig that many of these folks would be better suited setting on stands under track lighting in their living room. Mind you, that's all well and good if that's what they want to do with their money - just don't tell me my blue light special is not good enough or I will not be able to play with the big boys if I don't show up with the latest Gucci kit.

We're all on the same team here. We all want to support and nurture the shooting sports. (firearm ownership /usage in general) - If you run your mouth about me or my gear = Game on. One way or another I will change your mind. Unfortunetly my experience is these types ultimatly take their ball home and no longer want to play. Too bad for everyone.

I have a survivor .308 fitted with a SWFA SS 10x scope. I intend to show up at the next local tactical match and see how I stack up. There WILL be those looking down their noses at my modest rig while they circle jerk each other about the latest tactical fashion. (typical here in Southern California) I will not be able to hang in the rapid fire 5-10 round stages for sure. However, I welcome the challenge to better myself and further my education.

I take part in training with some of the most cutting edge weaponry there is. I own and shoot my NEF firearms. If you are a gun enthusiast you are a friend of mine. If you are a snob and judge others based on your gear or experience - be prepared to put your skills where your mouth is.

Lets all be part of the same team - the solution. Not fuel for the haters and anti enthusiasts.

Stan - sorry to go off track on your thread. Thank you for sharing your friendly experience with your shooting buddy. Keep up the good work and keep on shooting.

I hope to see you all at the range! And you know what - I don't care what your shooting & you're more than welcome to shoot anything I've got. Prepare yourself though, you may have to lower your standards and shoot one of my NEF single's!

DSMcG

Stan in SC · « **Reply #29 on:** November 27, 2007, 04:43:11 PM »

The challenge match was a friendly rivalry between two good friends.I like the looks of his Sharps replica.In no way was I unduly criticizing his rifle or Sharps or replica rifles in any way.I hope I didn't come across as doing so.I simply was relating a match between two rifles of varying costs and remarking on how well the ~~cheaper~~ errr...more economical Handi performed.
I also enjoy shooting my Marlin 1895 in 45/70 and it is accurate.I enjoy all firearms for what EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE IS.

Stan