Author Topic: Deer rifle for daughter .243 vs. 30-30 (Read 11409 times)

Doublebass73 · « **on:** June 19, 2007, 05:33:50 PM »

My 11 year old daughter has shown an interest in deer hunting so I'd like to use this as an excuse to buy her
a new handi rifle. She is very tall for her age (5'4") so an adult sized stock will probably be OK. She can handle
about 25-30 rounds out of her .410 versa-pack before her shoulder gets tired when I take her to the range.
Most of the shots in our hunting area are less than 75 yards with 150 being the max. From reading the posts here
it seems like the calibers to check out would be .243 and 30-30 for the low recoil.

My questions are:

Which of these calibers has less recoil?

Is there any difference in noise levels between the two calibers?

I'd like to hear everybody's recommendations

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2007, 05:55:00 PM »

Depending on the load and which 243 you get her, the 243 will probably have less recoil, but neither is a real kicker, provide her with good hearing protection, maybe a soft neoprene shell holder with a little foam on top of the comb under it, and maybe even install a Limbsaver recoil pad( get the wood stock if you want to do this), and she'll probably love either one.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

xhare · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:01:18 PM »

My guess would be that the 30-30 may hit the shoulder a little harder than the 243, but only a little bit. My other guess is that the 243 would hit the ears a little harder and have an increased muzzle blast.

Keep in mind that perceived recoil is more than just the calculation in foot pounds. Concussion from the muzzle blast can have an effect on the shooter and certainly help cause new shooters to flinch. This concussion can be felt by the entire body and can have an effect even when ear protection is used.

I must also add that I have shot the 30-30 but have never shot a 243. However, I have shot the 22-250 and 25-06 considerably. Neither hit the shoulder that hard, but the blast can be considerable.

Finally, the 243 Handi is set up for using a scope, and the 30-30 is set up for open sights. You can scope the 30-30, but the stock will have more drop than your daughter may like, especially considering the high rings that Handis require for hammer clearance. If you plan on using a scope, I might give the nod to the 243.

myarmor · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2007, 07:00:07 PM »

Both are easy to handle starter calibers and are very versatile in their own right. As far as recoil, I personally say between these 2, take your pick.
If it were me, and a total personal decision...I would be happy with a good shooting 243. And there are many a good shooting Handi's in 243, though same can be easily said about the 30-30.
Feel free to take your pic, as both will do the job just fine

-Aaron

trotterlg · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2007, 08:14:47 PM »

The .243 can have a very sharp nasty recoil to it, I think the 30-30 has a nicer feel to the recoil in my experience. It is the difference between a low pressure round and a high pressure one, one is sharp and the other is more "rounded" in my opinion. Larry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2007, 08:22:31 PM »

Here's a previous thread on a similar track with some a couple alternatives mentioned.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,116742.msg1098377225.html#msg1098377225

ONE HOLE 4570 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 20, 2007, 01:30:17 AM »

30-30 would be my choice & was for my 10 yr old. If you reload you can use hodgon's youth load data for either cal. I used 125gr sierra for reloading & they did well on the doe my son shot
I think there is managed recoil loads by Remington in 30-30 but do not know about the 243 never had one. Good luck & good shooting

wcf3030 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 20, 2007, 03:28:56 AM »

You did not mention if you reload or not.
I'd go with the 30-30 and the Sierra 125 or Speer 130 loaded to modest levels.
Both my 10 year old daughter and wife shoot these often and do not complain of the recoil.

Ratltrap · « **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2007, 07:54:29 AM »

Of those choices, I'd have to pick the 30-30. I know 243 has killed lots of deer, but for your application I'd pass on it because IMHO hunting big game with a 243 calls for expert shooting and bullet placement. If your daughter can really handle 25-30 rounds of 410 out of that sub 5 lb. Versa Pack I suggest you consider the 7-08 Handi over either the 30-30 or 243. The 7-08 is a true big game cartridge and doesn't recoil much more than a 3" 410 or a 150 gr. 30-30.

For the 30-30, if you handload great, put together some youth loads in 125-130 for practice and move up to a 150 for field use. If you don't reload, Remington lists a 125 gr. "managed recoil" load for practice. Have fun!

PartsMan · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2007, 07:56:27 AM »

30-30 is better for deer.
It is more forgiving when comes to shot placement.
You can get lighter bullets, reduced recoil, and sabots for practice.

The 243 is more of a duel purpose cartridge.
If she will be hunting varmints or coyotes also go with 243.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2007, 10:17:40 AM »

Ok.....I can spend anyone's money. Buy 'em both. Yup! Buy the 30-30 and the 243. Take her to the range and let her shoot 'em both. See which one she likes. Then you keep the other one.

See!

Problem solved!

Man, that was easy.

Dave

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2007, 10:48:05 AM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on June 20, 2007, 10:17:40 AM

Ok.....I can spend anyone's money. Buy 'em both. Yup! Buy the 30-30 and the 243. Take her to the range and let her shoot 'em both. See which one she likes. Then you keep the other one.

See!

Problem solved!

Man, that was easy.

Dave

Sounds reasonable to me!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2007, 10:52:09 AM »

I like that way of thinkin, a win, win situtation if I ever heard one, a family can never have too many Handis!!!

Tim

billy_56081 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2007, 12:15:51 PM »

It's kind of a crap shoot. Recoil on either would be very close to the same. The 30-30 and the 243 are both very adequate for deer sized game. The 243 would be more versatile for varmints and antelope. While the 30-30 would be a much better short range deer and black bear round. I personally loaded down some hornady 130 grain single shot pistol bullets for my daughter to practice for bear hunting and loaded them up to a higher load for bear hunting. They sure worked well 1 shot complete penetration on a 200 lb black bear. And if she decides she doesn't want to keep hunting what caliber would you prefer?

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 20, 2007, 01:31:48 PM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on June 20, 2007, 10:17:40 AM

Ok.....I can spend anyone's money. Buy 'em both. Yup! Buy the 30-30 and the 243. Take her to the range and let her shoot 'em both. See which one she likes. Then you keep the other one.

See!

Problem solved!

Man, that was easy.

Dave

I can't believe I didn't think of that first! I like that idea.

Right now I'm leaning toward the 30-30 but it certainly doesn't mean I can't get a .243 barrel for it, either. The price basically makes it a must do.

Shawnee Gene · « **Reply #15 on:** June 20, 2007, 02:25:13 PM »

I just logged on, and read this post. Davemuzz is right! Get them both.

Fred M · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2007, 05:51:09 PM »

7mm-08 all the way.
Bullet selection from 120g to 175gr. A good caliber to grow into. Light factory loads available. I just bought a 7mm-08 for a very very young friend of mine.
I loaded some 120gr V-max with 14gr of 700x for a light load. Have not had a chance to try them. This load needs to be tuned yet.

I used the 7mm-08 in Africa for plains game some pretty good sized ones with 139gr Horn Interlocks 6 animals with 7 shots. The amout of available bullets
and factory loads is increadible.

The 243 is a poor choice for a kid IMHO. I have no use for 243 as a game rifle.
I just removed a fine shooting 243 barrel from a Ruger#1 and replaced it with
a 7x57 barrel. Which is almost identical to 7mm-08.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 20, 2007, 07:02:26 PM »

Quote

I'd pass on it because IMHO hunting big game with a 243 calls for expert shooting and bullet placement.

Well...doesn't all big game hunting call for this...? The 243 is plenty enough gun for a whitetail we aren't talking 300 yards...he is asking for..Most of the shots in our hunting area are less than 75 yards with 150 being the max.

Get one..and send it in for the other barrel...1 with open sites..1 that is scoped..best of both worlds..

Mac

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2007, 08:07:32 AM »

I think Fred is right about the 7MM. In my experience with it there is something magic about that diameter. Old W.D.M.Bell killed many an old tusker with it.

That aside I'd go for the .30-30 any time. With cast bullets you can shoot a truck load of them for pennies. Cast will do fine on game if you want to. Or you can load it with .30 pistol bullets. It's just waaaaay more versitile IMHO.

When dealing with recoil there is something that people don't factor in. I don't know what else to call it except "frequency." While both may have about the same number of foot pounds of recoil, the .243 seems to have a higher "frequency." In other words the .243 is a hard, sharp punch. While to me at least the .30-30 is a more gentle, slower push.

Rusty <><

handirifle · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2007, 11:42:17 AM »

There is no denying a 7-08 will have a bit more power than the 243, but with the 243 loaded with a 95gr partition, the only limitation is the shooter, but that can be said of most any caliber, as Mac pointed out.

If the shooter cannot hit the heart lung area of the dear, then the shooter is too young or not profecient enough to hunt deer with ANY caliber. The only gripe I'd have with the 7-08 vs. the other two is recoil. Have shot all three and there is a bit more recoil in the 7 than either of the other two.

Lots hs been suggested in hand loading, but if you do not, the greatest selection (variety) of ammo is with the 243. You can get factory ammo with the Barnes 85gr TSX which will run end to end through a deer (do you need more), the nosler partition in either 95 or 100gr plus lots of other loadings.

I've killed game at yardages approaching 300yds with 85gr bullets from the 243, and the effect it has in unimaginable from that small of bullet.

The 85gr Sierra BTHP Gameking bullet will hold up well, even hitting a shoulder, it should fairly well destroy the vitals on the other side. Hitting the heart/lung area from a broadside shot and missing the shoulder, will destroy any organ it hits and exit the other side, most likley.

The 243 is far better if the shot presented happens to be a bit farther out also. Teach her to shoot small targets and get a good bullet in the 243 and don't be afraid to look back.

It's amazing to me someone will recommend the 7mm mauser for elk/moose and not a 243 for deer. Compare the power vs body weight of the target animal, and the 243 is side by side or ahead.

I have 2 243's and have owned and shot one of them for over 30yrs. They are deadly.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:06:32 PM »

Handirifle...right on Bro...Folks always want to act like the 243 isn't a good deer round..It's a mild shooting cartridge as compared to some others...and..one you can buy some pretty awesome factory loads for...some with the 85 grain Nosler partition..90 grain Scirocco 2 and the 90 grain xp3 bullet as well...and is the caliber that my small 11yr old will be shooting this coming season..

Which ever caliber you buy..get it early enough to allow her to begin shooting it with reduced loads..so they can get used to it before deer season...

Mac

Ratltrap · « **Reply #21 on:** June 21, 2007, 02:39:46 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on June 20, 2007, 07:02:26 PM

Quote
I'd pass on it because IMHO hunting big game with a 243 calls for expert shooting and bullet placement.

Well...doesn't all big game hunting call for this...? The 243 is plenty enough gun for a whitetail we aren't talking 300 yards...he is asking for..Most of the shots in our hunting area are less than 75 yards with 150 being the max.

Mac

Mac - I've shot deer and bear with both 6mm and 7mm and no doubt, they both work. Anytime I can get better terminal ballistics and 50-75% more bullet for only 2-3 lbs of recoil though, I gotta take it. Besides, in my experience if they do run a bit 7mm blood trails are much easier to follow than 6mm.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** June 21, 2007, 02:53:02 PM »

Quote from: Ratltrap on June 21, 2007, 02:39:46 PM

Mac - I've shot deer and bear with both 6mm and 7mm and no doubt, they both work. Anytime I can get better terminal ballistics and 50-75% more bullet for only 2-3 lbs of recoil though, I gotta take it. Besides, in my experience if they do run a bit 7mm blood trails are much easier to follow than 6mm.

But Doublebass73 isn't asking what you'd settle for, he's asking for his 11yr old daughter, unless you're an 11 yr old, he does't want more recoil than the 410.

The 410 has about the same recoil and recoil velocity as the 243 and 30-30. The 243 has more muzzle blast that a 30-30, that's probably where all this talk of "frequency" and "sharp" recoil is coming from, it's perceived as recoil, but isn't recoil. Good hearing protection will abate that issue.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

goodwrench6710 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 21, 2007, 02:58:42 PM »

30-30 win. all the way. Seems to be the friendliest for children.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 21, 2007, 03:13:00 PM »

I'll say it again...the 243 will do everything a 30-30 will do on a whitetail..with the right bullet..and if using factory ammo...give a wider range of different weight bullets...Load it up with some 58 to 87 grain v-max bullets and you have an exceptional varmint gun for her to use this summer to practice with...Get a good set of tall bi-pods or shooting sticks and get out with her and practice different field positions...

Mac

hunter · « **Reply #25 on:** June 21, 2007, 04:31:57 PM »

I have to agree with Fred. 243 is a poor choice for deer. OK everyone yell out about all the deer taken with a .243. 80 to 100 gr. bullet not enough in my mind. A white-tail can take alot of punishment. 7mm-08 is far better choice. You have the large 308 case for powder with the lighter bullets--equals ligther recoil, nowhere near the .308 win. 130gr. Speer is a deer getter with lot less recoil Than a 150 .308.lease don't handy-cap your daugther with a .243--She will be so upset when her first deer is lost, and it will be because of the .243. I know I Just started a mess here but I HATE .243 FOR DEER---We need clean kills, use enough gun.

Hunter

handirifle · « **Reply #26 on:** June 21, 2007, 04:45:46 PM »

Quote from: hunter on June 21, 2007, 04:31:57 PM

You have the large 308 case for powder with the lighter bullets--equals lighter recoil, nowhere near the .308 win. 130gr. Speer is a deer getter with lot less recoil .

Hunter

Not flaming you, you have your opinion, that's what he asked for and it's what he's getting, but the 243 ALSO is a 308 case.

flintlock · « **Reply #27 on:** June 21, 2007, 05:14:28 PM »

Man, I hate these kinds of posts...You guys either have some dang tough deer, can't shoot or can't track, not trying to insult anyone, but I can find no fault with a .243 and whitetails....I guess guys want a 5-6 inch diameter hole in the other side of the deer, but the .243 with any of several factory bullets is plenty...

I own one centerfire rifle, a .243 Ruger M-77 that I bought new in 1980...I have killed at least 150 deer with this gun and have never lost a one...I just can't imagine what you guys find wrong with it...We kill 40-50 deer a year on our farms in eastern NC, my brothers own 270s, 7mm-08s, .280s and cousins/buddies/nieces/nephews, etc own several other cartridges, frankly we don't see any difference in how far one deer runs over another, whether hit by a .270 or a .243....Hit them with a broadside center lung shot and the deer runs 25-75 yards...Hit them with a high shoulder shot (bullet through both shoulder blades and spine) and the deer drops....Hit them in the guts and you are in for a long night in the swamps...

If your gun will group Hornady 100gr InterLokts, 100 gr Remington CoreLokts, the Federal Premium 100 gr Nosler, 100 gr Sierra GameKing or the 85gr HPBT you will have no problems...

MnMike · « **Reply #28 on:** June 21, 2007, 05:44:11 PM »

I hope this is not turning into a battle.

I don't own a 30-30. I do have a .243 which I love.

I would still recommend a 30-30 for the big whitetails in my part of the country (Mn), for a beginner. The people I know who are successful with a .243 are real good shots and know all of the proper angles for different presentations. A beginner is not and does not. The .243 comes into its own with longer shots. A beginner shouldn't be trying those.

I think the 7-30 would be a bit better beginner's gun, but few companies make them.

JMHO,

mike

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 21, 2007, 07:23:53 PM »

Quote

The people I know who are successful with a .243 are real good shots and know all of the proper angles for different presentations. A beginner is not and does not.

I don't get this kind of statement...Who in the world is going to let their child go out on their own,until they are ready??This is the parents duty to teach their children WHERE TO SHOOT THE DEER... The 243 is no damn different than any other center fire cartridge..You put it thru the vitals...and you have a dead deer...period...Anyone saying it will wound more than a 30-30 doesn't know what they are talking about...unless they are using varmint bullets in the 243..I've seen more wounded deer by adult hunters using the 30-30 than I ever have with a child using a single shot 243...and I have seen some big bodied deer taken with it as well...Now...if someone is the type of hunter always shooting at the south end of a north bound buck...this also might be the reason they are discrediting the 243...but...even with any other cartridge...there is no guarantee of a clean kill...and if an adult is teaching his child that this is ok to do.....then they are morons in my opinion...

Mac